============ OGREtines list, Feb 15th (Last: Feb 14th) ============= ===== Ogre Tread Units and Size Class Part II From: "Duncan McEwen" From: Steve Jackson ===== How Combine GEVs Work From: Michael Powers ===== Requests for New OGRE Models From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" ===== Names for the Light Tank From: Michael Powers ===== Comments on Naval Ogre Variants From: Michael Powers From: Jpattern@aol.com From: VIPER394@aol.com ===== Storming the beach From: Todd Zircher ===== AP weapons that can attack armor From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Fencer poll From: David Morse From: "Third Power" ===== OT: Sherman (was: Fencer poll) From: romb0001 ===== Ogre humor From: "Terry Hewitt" ===== More Ogre Bumper Stickers From: "Terry Hewitt" ===== Fencer vs. Mark IV From: Michael Powers ===== Minis for Mark III / Mark V with missile racks? From: Michael Powers ===== Israel in Ogre From: Michael Powers ===== Hometown maps From: romb0001 ===== Hometown maps (Blowing up Duluth) From: "Matthew D. Goldman" ------------------------------ From: "Duncan McEwen" Subject: Ogre Tread Units and Size Class Part II Henry (and Steve), This is my second installment of the Tread Units Post I did a few days ago. I got a little deeper into the subject after that first article. I like what you did in your naval scinerio with the sub and the carrier and I will post some more about that seperatly. If you could clean up my table below before you repost this I would appreacte it. I hope it looks ok at your end, but it seems like it might not. Thanks, Duncan McEwen Recently I posted an article on tread units for the different ogres and how it related to their size class rating. I have continued my research with the help of GURPS Ogre. My original post was looking solely at size class to determine a formula to compute the treads required at each size. This was for future use with larger size classes and hull units for ships. In the course of my research I have discovered several things and developed several recommendations. First off, I compared the size class listed for each unit, the volume statistics from GURPS Ogre, the unit weight from GURPS Ogre, the actual Tread Units, and my Tread Unit Formula. From this raw data I also have developed a number for comparison purposes. This number is simply the weight in tons time the unit volume in cubic feet. (Where is the metric system? I figured GURPS Ogre would use metric numbers.) Based on this I have developed the following chart, in increasing order of the Vol-Weight comparison number. (I hope this formats right) VP Size Volume Weight VolxWieght Treads Size Class (ft3) (tons) (ft3-tons) Act Calc (New) LGEV 3 1 1,594 58.59 93,392 1 LT 3 1 2,745 76.00 208,620 2 GEV-PC 6 3 2,381 97.46 232,052 2 CMC 18 4 3,768 80.00 301,440 2 GEV 6 2 2,781 112.12 311,806 2 Mobile HWZ 12 4 6,511 190.00 1,237,090 3 HVY Tank 6 3 8,154 202.00 1,647,108 3 MSL Tank 6 2 9,822 211.00 2,072,442 3 Howitzer 12 4 12,444 315.00 3,919,860 4 SHVY Tank 12 5 13,390 303.00 4,057,170 4 Mk. I 25 5 27,567 768.00 21,171,456 18 24 5 Pikeman 25 5 27,567 768.00 21,171,456 18 24 5 Mk. II 50 6 49,754 1,131.00 56,271,774 30 36 6 Fencer 140 8 72,605 1,666.00 120,959,930 48 48 7 Vulcan 100? 7 86,298 1,636.00 141,183,528 48 48 7 Legionnaire 100 7 90,686 1,889.00 171,305,854 48 48 7 Mk. III 100 7 90,686 1,889.00 171,305,854 48 48 7 Mk. III-B 120 7 94,637 2,071.00 195,993,227 48 48 7 Huscarl 150 8 110,490 2,345.00 259,099,050 60 60 8 Ogre Mk. V 150 8 110,490 2,345.00 259,099,050 60 60 8 Ogre Ninja 150 7 152,981 2,546.00 389,489,626 40 60 8 Ogre Mk. IV 150 8 157,448 2,655.00 418,024,440 56 60 8 Ogre Mk. VI 210 9 163,902 3,193.00 523,339,086 72 72 9 DoppelSR 210 9 222,248 3,414.00 758,754,672 60 72 9 USS Ingraham FFG 4,016.00 84 10 USS Toledo SSN 6,927.00 84 10 USS Chandler DDG 9,842.00 96 11 USS Port Royal CG 9,966.00 96 11 USS Ohio SSBM 16,802.00 108 12 USS Missouri BB 57,271.00 132 14 USS Ronald Regan CVN 98,235.00 144 15 In case you can’t read it, the columns are VP, Current Size Class, Volume, Weight, Volume x Weight, Actual Tread Units, Formula calculated Tread Units, and then my proposed Size class. This table does not include CPs or transport vehicles (Trucks, Hovertrucks, etc) as their large spaces tend to be different from combat vehicles. (The Cruise Missile Crawler is similar since it carries “Cargo”) I also included several US Warships on the chart to show how I hope to tie this into Naval Units later. (Data from the Naval Vessel Registry, http://www.nvr.navy.mil/) The biggest discrepancies seem to be the normal armored vehicles, the Ninja, the Fencer, and the Dopplesoldner. Please refer to my previous post on tread units regarding my thoughts on the Mark I, II, and IV’s tread unit discrepancies. The normal armor units seem to have a variety of size classes. These classes do not seem to match up to what is shown by the table above based on GURPS Ogre data. I would recommend that the size class chart be revised to be more in line with the last column of the chart above. This would make more sense, as (for example) the GEV and MSL Tank should not be the same size with a difference of 100 tons and 7000 cubic feet of interior volume. Also compare that a HVY Tank weighs less than an MSL, has smaller volume, and is a full size class larger. The Ninja is very problematic. The description says that it is the size of a Mark III, and the Tread Unit numbers and size class are close to that size too. However, the GURPS Ogre volume and weight would make the Ninja the size of a Mark V. In this case my recommendation would be to modify the Ninja to the same tread units as a Mark III and change the GURPS Ogre data to the Mark III size as well. It seems very unlikely that a unit the size of a Mark V would be used as a reconnaissance/raider unit. A Mark III is already pretty big to be stealthy. The Fencer has been addressed separately in the Poll that Mr. Jackson has requested. In short, its value should be more inline with a Mark III and it’s size class reduced by 1. (Thanks to Steve for soliciting our opinions on that matter.) The DoppleSoldner I previously advocated for a reduction in size class. However, with the GURPS Ogre data, I now have reversed my position and advocate for an increase in Tread Units. The Dopplesoldner is obviously a size 9 unit from the table above, but the treads are far too low for such a large tank. In all of these cases there may be a game balance issue for keeping the statistics as they are posted. However, I would hope that any required balance can be achieved with VP cost changes. This will allow the units to have a more accurate physical representations and keep the game closer to “reality” without over complication. Further, any new units developed (hopefully Naval, Nihon, and China) can benefit from design formulas such as the tread unit formula ((Size –3) x 12 = total tread units.) Hopefully you have all found this information useful. I also hope that Mr. Jackson will consider some of these items for possible incorporation to the game. I plan to continue my work and eventually develop my naval recommendations that are at based on real world ships and Ogre statistics. I am very encouraged by the discussion of naval units I see here on this list, and will post some of my thoughts separately. Thank you, Duncan McEwen NA Combine Ogre Engineering Division ----- From: Steve Jackson Subject: Re: Ogre Tread Units and Size Class Part II I don't plan to change any tread unit numbers on published units. Sorry to be so very direct, but I don't want any massive amounts of work done under a false pretense. Steve Jackson - yes, of SJ Games - yes, we won the Secret Service case Learn Web or die - http://www.sjgames.com/ - dinosaurs, Lego, Kahlua! The heck with PGP keys; finger for Geek Code. Fnord. ----- [I think that the misunderstanding here is in the nature of the size class value. The primary purpose of the size class value is to determine how well the units stack up in ramming. (However if you ram until they're three units tall, the stack tends to tip over. ;-) A more compact and solidly built unit should have a size class advantage against a less well armored but bigger and slightly more massive unit and so the Heavy Tank has a higher size class value than the Missile Tank, because it should be favored in ramming. Also structure points are not the same as thread units. My 60 point LPD class vehicle takes 30 points of fire to sink it, but it takes an average of 45 points of fire to stop the 15 thread unit Mark I OGRE. There is also a logarithmic factor in structure units as the damage tends to accumulate. Even a 21st century Iowa (if one was ever built) should only be about 90 "floatation points", and carriers with hollow insides should be less than that. Also, while working on my OGRE formula, I noticed a change over time in the ratio of thread units to load. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: How Combine GEVs Work I was thinking about this... It may be that the description of GEVs as 'armored hovercraft' isn't exactly true. Looking at the way the Combine GEVs are designed, I'm thinking that their lift is generated by jet outputs. There is a turbofan engine mounted in the midsection of the body (possibly more than one); this engine provides high-pressure gas which is ducted to the 'feet', and drives fans that lift the ship. Remaining gas is sent to the rear of the ship to provide thrust; This gas is also used for a reaction control system (RCS); at higher speeds, those big fins provide more control power from aerodynamic loads. Thus, the Combine GEV is less like a ground vehicle than it is like a Harrier operating in permanent ground effect; maybe up to 15 meters off the ground at slower speeds (so you don't outrun the 'bubble' of air you're sitting on.) A complex computer system monitors the terrain state ahead of the ship and varies the 'throttle' of each individual fan to respond (cutting in RCS jets when necessary.) While the system usually has some lag, the ship is built from BPC so it can live with an occasional 'bump'. The intakes for the turbofan are in the 'waist' of the GEV; right behind the cockpit and below the gun. The Combine LGEV operates in a similar manner; a turbofan produces gas that both provides thrust and drives a lift fan. However, the LGEV has one large fan rather than several smaller ones, so the RCS does more work in keeping the nose out of the dirt (the regular GEV can vary thrusters to change attitude.) -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" Subject: Requests for New OGRE Models I'd like to see the following release schedule: Mk III (already released) Mk V (already released) Fencer (existing sculpture) Mk IVa (new sculpture - though I like the Mk IV) then Mk IIIB (New Front hull, New Aft Hull and Mk V barrel kit) Vulcan ( Mk IIIB Front Hull??, New Aft Hull, new barrel kit) DoppelSoldner ( New everything, or maybe use the Fencer's tracks) Mk II (Based on Alamo??) Mk I (Based on Combine HT hull?) I'm using My 2 Martian Metals Mk Va's as Huscarles - they are sufficiently different from the Ral Partha ones to be new versions, and sufficiently the same so you have to look closely to spot the differences. Ninja Golem Chinese pseudo-Ogre ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: Names for the Light Tank So are there class names for the Combine and Paneuropean light tanks? Combine: Chaffee, Sherman, Lee, Vickers (if built at Sheffield) Paneuropean: Nike, Chevalier, Cavalier, Fuchs (Fox in German) -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: Comments on Naval Ogre Variants 'Naval' Ogres probably wouldn't be involved in a deep-water battle; as you said, that's all BVR missiles and pray that the other guy's Aegis breaks down before yours does. However, 'opposed landing' scenarios would probably do very well for Ogres. It would likely look something like 'Icepick'. And I could certainly see a two-or-three mapsheet scenario where one sheet had a Fox-style landing ship and the rest of the map was water, while the other mapsheet was about a third water and two-thirds regular terrain. (Given the size of the Ogre hexes, a beach would only be a small bit of one.) The landing forces would probably have cruise missiles in support--maybe they get a small number each turn, rather than a fixed amount (a 'missile rack' rather than six missiles.) That could be a neat scenario...the defending GEVs 'dogfight' the attackers at about the seam between the maps, while cruise missiles zoom overhead to be shot down by the defenders' weapons. Suddenly a defender misses and a 'hole' opens up; the attackers pour into the breach while the defending commander frantically shifts forces to plug the gap... -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: Jpattern@aol.com Subject: Comments on Naval Ogre Variants For a very interesting take on near-future sub warfare, including *lots* of nuclear torpedos and depth charges and their effect on subs and surface ships, check out the new novel "Deep Sound Channel" by Joe Buff, currently out in hardback. I'm not a huge fan of techno-military fiction ala Tom Clancy, but I liked this book. Jeff Moore jpattern@aol.com ------------------------------ From: VIPER394@aol.com Subject: Comments on Naval Ogre Variants Dear Andrew Abought you coments towards naval Ogres. Your coment's abought Subs certianly bears thought but I see much of the rest is hogwash. First It's just a game not a scientifically designed simulation. Second The main rule note the Quality of ECM is much graeter than we possess today Case in point the howitzer has a range abougt a third of what A self propeled 155mm can do. I have been told that way back in the golden days of Ogre there were (in books long since out of print) rules for navel ogres and even Aircraft Ogres so somewhere in the Mythos of Ogre there is at least the suporting blocks for thease items. And with out ships how did the MKV templates arive in England? well theoretically I guess you could send an ogre or two to drive along the ocean floor from North America to England but if bpc cant hold pressure then It's a waste of the Ogre all the enemy has to do is send out a sub with one nuke torpedo . You cant tell me that an Ogre wouldn't stand out like a turd in a punch bowl on sonar the same noise generated by the pasage of the Ogre would also leave it blind underwater. where as a merchant or war ship would tend to blend in with the surface swell especaly in a storm and a sub is Aquadynamic and by nature as well as design much more stellthy for get abought Active sonar you can hear with your own ear in some cases some one pinging away from a much graeter distance than they can here you . Well I could go on abought this for hours but I forgot what I said at the beging of the post "it's just a game" If you don't like the thought of Naval battles in ogre no one is forceing you to play them , personaly I have no problem with them. Phill Van der Laan Petty Officer Second Class NorAm Combine...Errr...I mean United States Navy P.S. to all you Submariers out there there are two kinds of ships all right but they are Targets and ASW platforms ----- [Damn, I forgot the rules for subs ramming surface targets, err... -HJC ;-] ------------------------------ From: Todd Zircher Subject: Storming the beach > [HJC] > The problem with NOT having ships on the board is what then keeps > the defender from taking an all GEV force and mixing it up so closely > with the hovertransports that Cruise Missiles would simply finish off > the attackers? It's conceivable that destroyers and escorts would carry a mix of cruise missiles and laser towers. This would make the beachhead a very hot combat zone since the sea based units would have to 'shell' the defending towers first. Perhaps landing ships are submersible and the tracked units and marines have to storm beaches from the relative safety of the deep. Coming 'over the top' in GEVs may be suicidal in the face of defending laser towers. -- TAZ ------------------------------ From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: AP weapons that can attack armor << ...the next set of maps... >> There's more coming? YES! << Imagine logs, rubble, earth, and vehicle hulks all piled into shape and then sprayed with BPC . . . >> And, of course, the gruesome rumors of the occasional half-dead battlesuited trooper buried in said pile... << I'd say that if you really want to have your AP guns shoot things, then allow them to fire at armored units, but only during an overrun, and they don't get double strength when doing it. i.e. I could shoot my AP guns at a HVY for 1 attack strength each, or at infantry for 2 attack strength each. >> Ooooo. Yeah, that's a MUCH better idea than mine. I still think the APs should then cost an extra VP each, and should add to the OGRE's total cost by that amount. best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) ------------------------------ From: David Morse Subject: Fencer poll > Those two big guns in front are Howitzers, Atk 6/6, D3. -HJC This is NOT your father's Oldsmobile ! ------------------------------ From: "Third Power" Subject: Fencer poll I'm one for tradition and keeping it simple. Stick with the two secondaries at the original point cost. The Fencer was the PE's first attempt and was bound to have defects and be expensive. The option of having both with one as an "upgraded" model (Fencer Model A&B respectively) is also appealing. Roy Kubicek P.S. The 60mm Shermans in Africa were up against older Panzer III's and IV's and crappy Italian armor. When they went into Europe, They faced Tigers, Tiger II's, and Panthers with an attrition level close to what we did to the Iraqi's. We got them by superior numbers. ------------------------------ From: romb0001 Subject: OT: Sherman (was: Fencer poll) (Great, I'm delurking to comment on an OT subject :) > From: "Andrew Walters" > The Sherman entered Europe with a 60mm gun only to find that this Actually, the Sherman started with a 75. It did... ok against the Panzer III & IV but failed against the Tiger(which made it to North Africa in small numbers). In Europe, a large number of Shermans had 76's, which wasn't much of an improvement. The Germans had enough Tigers and Panthers to maul anything short of a Sherman Firefly, which had a 17 pdr gun. The Pershing was a better match, but they didn't arrive until after the Ardennes, by which time the Germans really were out of tanks and fuel. Bryan ------------------------------ From: "Terry Hewitt" Subject: Ogre humor Henry: This might very well qualify as Ogre humor since it's the proverbial cure for which there is no disease. Alternate Combat Results Table DIE ROLL 1-2 1-1 3-2 2-1 5-2 3-1 4-1 1 NE NE NE NE D D D 2 NE NE D D D D X 3 NE D D D D X X 4 NE D D X X X X 5 D X X X X X X 6 X X X X X X X X 17% 33% 33% 50% 50% 67% 83% D 17% 33% 50% 33% 50% 33% 17% NE 67% 33% 17% 17% - - - Also, here's my contribution to the Ogre bumper stickers: "When you're an Ogre, you don't NEED a %$#@$%& bumper sticker" ----- [Where's that 2 to 3?!? Actually, the step function plays an important part in setting up the Hvy-GEV-Misl kill cycle. Having a 3-2 makes the Missile Tank too powerful. (They become self-guarding against hoverruns.) -HJC] ------------------------------ From: "Terry Hewitt" Subject: More Ogre Bumper Stickers Here are a couple more Ogre bumper stickers: "I broke up Microsoft (sorry Bill, I don't do Windows)" "Missing something? Check my treads" Terry Hewitt ----- [I prefer: "Mr Gates, I'll be your server tonight" on a Nipponise OGRE overruning Redmond. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: Fencer vs. Mark IV Sure, the Fencer comes out looking worse. But wasn't the Mark IV designed _after_ the Fencer showed up? I think that this would be a neat 'design sequence' for Ogres: Originally, 'Mark IV' would refer to a vehicle that looked like a Mark III-B with six missiles and eight AP. Since the Mark III was working so well, the next design would just be bigger. (There was no III-B at this point.) However, when the Paneuropeans brought out the Fencer, the missile racks proved more effective than the Combine expected, and the 'Mark IV' was re-designed. That's when the split into 'Raider' and 'Combat' units happened; the design work that had gone into the original Mark IV concept was merged with the Mark III, and that's where the III-B came from. The III-B was intended to be a stopgap unit that could match the Fencer until the real Mark IV and Mark V came on line. The Combine, as noted elsewhere, had trouble getting the missile racks to work properly, so the Mark IV actually ended up coming after the Mark V. The Mark VI was a 'traditional' evolution of the Mark V design, as the Dopp hadn't come out yet and so there was no real need for anything 'bigger' than a Mark V. Paneuropean development also took two paths with the capture of Sheffield; one group kept going with the Fencer, adding main-battery technology to create the Doppelsoldner. Problems with this sizeable design pushed its introduction back to the last in the Ogre line (the engineers eventually had to make much of the drivetrain out of industrial-grade diamond due to the weight of the vehicle.) The other group started 'evolving' the Mark III in much the same way as the Combine had done in its original Mark IV design; though ultimately the Paneuropeans decided that the optimal design looked like a Mark V anyway. The 'development history' of Ogres might look something like this: Mark I Mark II Paneuropean SHVY Mark III Fencer, Mark III-B Mark IV, V, Vulcan Mark VI, Ninja Doppelsoldner -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: Minis for Mark III / Mark V with missile racks? Over in BYOO there are designs for these; as I recall, the Mark III-m has one missile rack with four missiles replacing the two original ones, and the V-m has three racks with five missiles each. Will we see minis for these sort of vehicles? Maybe the Paneuropeans tried to put 'their' technology into the Combine Ogre templates they captured. -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ------------------------------ From: Michael Powers Subject: Israel in Ogre Has anyone discussed this yet? It seems like Israel would be in a pretty crappy position, give the wide availability of nukes and the equipment to deliver them... Yitzhak looked at at his sister. The bare bulb hanging from a wire overhead flickered in time with the rumbling from above, but it still illuminated the dull look on her face; the look of one who won't ever quite stop being scared. Dust sifted from the ceiling of the tunnel as an exceptionally heavy warhead detonated. "Jerusalem missed one," said one of the dark-haired men squatting in the corner. The others nodded, covering their fear with the appearance of wise unconcern. They returned to their dice game, tension breaking loose occasionally in sharp words over the outcome of a toss. The boy tried to remember what the sun looked like, what it had felt like to be in a world where the ground wasn't glazed over by repeated bombardments. When you didn't need to run for the shelter at the first hint of a rumble in the ground. Where the sky wasn't filled with the pastel trails of lasers, reaching out to swat the Arabian missiles. Yitzhak remembered his sister pointing at them, laughing at the pretty fireworks, just before the first time they had to go to the shelter. He remembered the men shouting at each other as the Goliath machines lumbered over the mountain. But he couldn't remember what had happened before that. -- Michael Powers Graduate Student, GWU/JIAFS NASA Langley Research Center (757) 864 4457 -- m.t.powers@larc.nasa.gov ----- [Read GURPS OGRE. -HJC] ------------------------------ From: romb0001 Subject: Hometown maps > From: "William Spencer" > > I like it, I like it. People living in an area can always give little > details that an out-of-towner (stater, nationer) would miss. That's why the > AADA Road Atli were fun. Someone do it, 'twould be very cool. Finally had a look at the scenario that started this thread. Nice, I smell a good convention game in the works here. Time to take a trip down to the National Air Photo Library(there are some advantages to living in a national capitol). Let's see... 1 1/2"(38.1 mm) to 1.5 km(1 500 000 mm) would be 1:3 9370.08 scale for the map, I guess? Bryan ------------------------------ From: "Matthew D. Goldman" Subject: Hometown maps (Blowing up Duluth) > > I can just see a supplement or website where everybody submits a > > color map with a note as to the location of their home and a few > > scenarios over the local terrain. Duluth is done and several copies have been printed. Based upon the size of the map (at least mine!) I suspect that it would be better to have a page with links to everyone's map pages. I just have to shrink the jpeg down to a reasonable size. Currently the small version is somewhere around 20 meg. And as one of my friends at work pointed out, I have to add in a North pointer. Flash update: http://www.visi.com/~goldman/ogre/ has the map online. I shrank it down to about 2 meg. Just an amusing note since it is Valantines Day, I'm not actually from Duluth, I just have a number of ex-girlfriends from there. For the curious I used Photoshop. Major layers were an overlay of the hex grid, layers with the roads, railroads and streams, a layer at 40% transparent with the satalite image, and then an layer with the various hex colors. The Photoshop file grew to just over 500 meg as I worked on it. The web page still needs some work, any suggestions for scenarios would be welcome. Matthew P.S. Henry if you send me your real world address, I'll send you a copy of the map printed out and laminated from the higher resolution source. You should get something nice for taking the trouble to run this mailing list! Matthew Goldman E-mail: goldman@visi.com ------------------------------ Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.