====== The Ogre Digest, November 29th (Last: November 27th) ======== ===== Missile Racks in Overruns From: "Peter Hatch" From: stephan beal From: Darren Breland From: "Powers, Michael T1" From: "Peter Hatch" ===== Underwater Ogres From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Mark IV miniature From: Sethkimmel@aol.com ===== Laser AA Systems Today From: Todd Zircher From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com From: "Herb Diehr" ===== Big scale maps From: Servitor@aol.com ===== Missile GEVs in action. From: Darren Breland ===== Cruise Missile Problems From: Darren Breland ===== Strange Things From: Darren Breland ============================== From: "Peter Hatch" Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns > From: "Paul Chapman" > > Retorical question: how many missiles does an Ogre Mk. III have? > Answer: enough to allow it to make two attacks at strength 6. > > This does _not_ equal 2 missiles. At the level of abstraction > Ogre/G.E.V. operates at, "one 6/5 attack" does not mean "one Rattler." Yes, it really does equal 2 missiles. "one 6/5 attack" may not mean "one Rattler" but "2 missiles" actually does mean "2 missiles". The Mark III mini, which I've believe you've seen, has 2 missiles sculpted on it. There's quite a bit of Ogre fiction and it all supports the 2 missiles concept, and not your abstraction. > GEV 8.071 is denoting, perhaps too simplistically, that a missile rack > may not fire its entire payload in one turn. It may, however, fire one > full scale attack (6/5) per rack per turn. Firing into overrun does > not require a full "burst" of missiles, nor does it require the > extensive targeting normally necessary. Firing at a cruise missile is > similar -- a "snap shot" if you will. In which case the snap shots wouldn't take up a full missile of ammo. So you've thrown out the obvious logic of one missile actually being one missile to try to make the rules match logic and it still doesn't work. If you really need a handwave, why not just use the "doesn't require extensive targeting normally necessary" bit and drop the rest. Perhaps the reason is simply that the missile needs to be constantly fed data from the Ogre's sensors to help it evade? That could explain why no other unit uses it, some of how it manages to get through point defenses by itself when other attacks have many more projectiles, and could explain the rate of fire - it could fire many more, but it can only feed data to one at a time. -- Peter Hatch ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns > From: "Paul Chapman" > ... > This does _not_ equal 2 missiles. At the level of abstraction > Ogre/G.E.V. operates at, "one 6/5 attack" does not mean "one Rattler." > > GEV 8.071 is denoting, perhaps too simplistically, that a missile rack may > not fire its entire payload in one turn. It may, however, fire one full > scale attack (6/5) per rack per turn. Firing into overrun does not require > a full "burst" of missiles, nor does it require the extensive targeting > normally necessary. Firing at a cruise missile is similar -- a "snap shot" > if you will. > > How about this for a rewrite? > > "GEV 8.071 Missile rack rules. The "missile rack" is a new weapons system > not seen in _Ogre_. Each missile rack can fire one missile per turn. The > missiles are stored inside the Ogre and can only be fired through a missile > rack. Therefore, an undamaged Mark IV can fire three missiles per > turn. However, a missile rack which has fired may still attack a Cruise > Missile on the same turn, providing it has the additional missile > available. This all makes good sense except that we're missing one detail: if a snapshot is effectively a "partial" shot, and not a whole volley, why is it taking up a whole missile for purposes of ammo expenditure? > "A missile rack may fire once per fire round in overrun combat, until the > racks are destroyed or the missile supply is exhausted." Actually, after thinking about it more, i like the old vagueness better ;). It seems everyone has worked out an interpretation which they like for their own games. For example, someone suggested earlier that missiles in overrun always have spillover effect on all units in the hex (and i'll start using that ruling as well). Of course, an official ruling would be needed for those doing tournament play, or for players who can't agree on an interpretation. > Does that help? Yes, indeed. Thanks for your detailed response :). ----- stephan ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns >How about this for a rewrite? > >"GEV 8.071 Missile rack rules. The "missile rack" is a new weapons system >not seen in _Ogre_. Each missile rack can fire one missile per turn. The >missiles are stored inside the Ogre and can only be fired through a missile >rack. Therefore, an undamaged Mark IV can fire three missiles per >turn. However, a missile rack which has fired may still attack a Cruise >Missile on the same turn, providing it has the additional missile >available. > >"A missile rack has a defense of 4. The missiles have no defense strength >-- they cannot be destroyed while inside the Ogre. When all missile racks >are destroyed, or when all 15 missiles are gone, the Mark IV can no longer >fire missiles. Destruction of a missile rack destroys one missile at the >same time; this is the only way these missiles can be destroyed before >firing. > >"A missile rack may fire once per fire round in overrun combat, until the >racks are destroyed or the missile supply is exhausted." > >Does that help? > Yep, sounds good to me. But you may also have to add clarification in the Overrun section as well. ===== From: "Powers, Michael T1" Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns How about just say "The Missile Rack fires as other Ogre weapons systems; it can fire in every overrun phase at double strength, and make anti-missile attacks. However, each time the rack fires, it expends one missile." Oh, and the artwork for the Fencer shows it firing _five_ missiles. Doh. -- Mike Powers ===== From: "Peter Hatch" Subject: Missile Racks in Overruns > If you really need a handwave, why not just use the "doesn't require > extensive targeting normally necessary" bit and drop the rest. > Perhaps the reason is simply that the missile needs to be constantly > fed data from the Ogre's sensors to help it evade? That could explain > why no other unit uses it, some of how it manages to get through point > defenses by itself when other attacks have many more projectiles, and > could explain the rate of fire - it could fire many more, but it can > only feed data to one at a time. Scratch that, it doesn't work. If a Mark V can fire 6 missiles in a turn, there can't be any problems targeting that many for a Mark IV. Personally, I think the rules should be changed so that a Missile Rack can fire any number of missiles in a turn, and at least the values of the Ogres that use them changed. -- Peter Hatch ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Underwater Ogres << [What happens when an Ogre rams Hoover Dam? -HJC] >> I die... ===== [Well, you'll be over a hundred by that point so you probably won't notice. -HJC] ============================== From: Sethkimmel@aol.com Subject: Mark IV miniature << Which is a long way of saying: the IV will look like the III and V, but not like the "in-between" step. >> hmmm....perhaps the MkIV should be the size of a MkV, but with a bigger aft hull (for the missile magazine and the speed 4 powerplant), and a smaller front hull (less guns), with a MkV sized tower? Picture gluing a Fencer aft hull to a MkIII front hull...:-) (which I was SERIOUSLY contemplating to make an ersatz MkIV; just file off one of the four missile nose cones on the Fencer rear hull, but now I don't have to...) ============================== From: Todd Zircher Subject: Laser AA Systems Today There is one significant 'flaw' in Darren Breland's article about AA lasers. The AA laser is only as good as the fire control sensor it is attached to. The same stealth technology that defeats a SAM site will be the same technology that allows a jet to fly past a laser based AA site. Next generation wild weasels and their missiles would be stealthly and perhaps coated with an ablative layer so that it can survive the inital laser attack and deliver a killing blow. As to decoys, the same chaff that spoofs a radar guided missile will affect the fire control systems of a laser. The tech war of measure and counter measure is a never ending cycle. -- TAZ ===== [Why not use optic rather than radar tracking for a laser? -HJC] ===== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Laser AA Systems Today << 6. Un-affected by countermeasures - You can't jam a laser or make it chase a phantom target like a flare >> Metalic Aerosol fogs and plain old Chaff work rather well. And if you cannot detect it, you still can't shoot at it... Ad Astra! Stan Leghorn ===== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Laser AA Systems Today Your correspondent has expanded the abilities of these chemical lasers somewhat ... there is a definite fall-off with distance which makes it hard to use lasers as long-range weapons, and when you increase the energy density beyond a certain level the energy goes into the air (it turns it into a plasma), and filamentation ensues, leading to loss of beam steering capability. In addition, atmospheric conditions make a tremendous difference, especially with regards to the frequencies of light that will work. But TRW does seem to have a good system for combatting tactical weapons; my approach would be to find it and overwhelm it! Perhaps by high-altitude bombing, or by sending in lots of little rockets. Best Regards, Peter ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Big scale maps > The Ogre minis community is fairly starved for maps at the moment. The > only published "big scale" maps are the old Ogre and GEV maps. I would love to see SJ Games come out with a "Map Pack" for OGRE Miniatures. At least four doublesided maps (mostly morphic to the existing maps, natch) comparable in size to the existing G.E.V. map. First pack could simply be Battlefields/Shockwave transposed up to the scale. Later packs could include new/experimental terrain types (desert, ice, snow, etc.) This could also be a good way to factor in the (to-date) extremely optional "Badlands" rules for elevations and creating slopes. (Finally! Something else for your engineers to do besides build revetments and remove hulks.) I would pay $20 to $25 for such a product. Comments? best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) ===== From: Darren Breland Subject: Missile GEVs in action. > Atk: 3/4, D: 1, M: 3/2, unlimited shots, or exactly the same with one >missile shot and then it turns into an ordinary LGEV by dropping the empty >missile tubes and runs away for three hexes even on the turn of firing? > > The LGEV with one-shot missile pods may choose to attack with its >standard 1/2 gun and keep the missiles in reserve, but it cannot use both >attacks at the same time. -HJC] I like the 3/4, D1 M3/2 unlimited shots. Lower defense to show that it is less maneuverable than a standard GEV. VP 6 would be a good balance. We'll try that one, looks like it will work pretty good. ===== [Note that this is a highly munchkinized unit as it shouldn't EVER test its defense if used right, so it doesn't much matter what that defense is. -HJC] ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Cruise Missile Problems > [Well, you're going to want a target for that, so why don't I make a >stab at fixing the most divergent rule between Ogre Minis and the >boardgame. My feeling is that you don't like the CM rules for mini's ;-). I will have to pull out my old Shockwave rules to see what the difference is, but I like your super nuke rules. Since the Minis rules CM has only a 7" blast radius with 3" Kill Zone. ===== [The biggest problem with the current cruise missile rules in Ogre Minis is that a LGEV takes the same range adjustment as a Mark VI Ogre. -HJC] ============================== From: Darren Breland Subject: Strange Things I picked up a new SJ figure at the local hobby store yesterday. Without giving away too much info about what it is, I have a few questions: 1: What exactly does a POD do? Since it only has a defense it must do something special. 2: What does the TOWER do? Ditto above. 3: Does the EYE observe (pun intended) LLOS rules? 4: What about Overruns with that thing? I know I wouldn't get that close to it! 5: Any suggestions on how to paint "Slime Green"? 6: Why do I have this uncontrollable urge to salivate profusely and a desire for raw uncooked meat? *ack! ppppffffffffftttttt! gurgle gurgle!* Oh, and before I go slithering off, I also got the new Ogre III-B, looks like a Mk III on steroids. Kudos on a nice job Paul! - Darren (soon to be Xyptluhl) ===== [See http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/ogrethulhu/index.html for details on the playtest, but don't bother reading my versions and make sure to stock up on LGEVs. Why LGEVs? Their low defense means they're rarely stunned and their quick speed will keep them from being eaten the rest of the time. (Don't feed Ogrethulhu, you don't want to see it when it ISN'T hungry...) BTW, What stats were printed with this unit? -HJC] Henry J. Cobb ogre@sjgames.com Archives at http://www.io.com/~hcobb All OGRE-related items Copyright (c) 2001, by Steve Jackson Games.