====== OGRE Digest, Feburary 8th, 2003 (Last: February 4th) ======== ===== Fencer points, streams and D5 SHVY From: "Chris French" ===== Vehicle Carried Inf From: "Chris French" ===== MANPADS From: "Chris French" ===== D5 SHVY From: stephan beal From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com From: David Morse ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Fencer points, streams and D5 SHVY > From: "Paul Grogan" > Yep, it seems to be rounded up. I mentioned that the original Fencer was > 24 armour units. But the new fencers are 125 and 150 points. I think this > translates as 21 armour units, and 25 armour units. There you go, then. > Only to the units which already have to stop for the streams Thank you. > Yep, I understand all that, and the stats, but my players tend to think > its a bit too good and people are just taking as many of them as they can > get. I may have to limit their choices. Sniff, sniff -- I smell Munchkins.... ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Vehicle Carried Inf > From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > Make it cost 2MPs to load or unload Infantry. Still doesn't prevent the INF hopping on and off at will, unless both carrier and INF pay MP. (If so, the INF are pretty much dogchow for AP guns, as they can't move once they offload.) > Because they are NOT nuclear powered, like the Ogre. Unless the rules > were changed while I was not looking, they still used liquid fuel... > [IIRC Evil Stevie noted that all the little units used nuclear power > units in a Space Gamer "Ask the Ogre" and that is clearly seen in the > GURPS OGRE designs, so there's nothing from keeping any tank in the game from > taking a dip, as long as it doesn't go too deep. So just treat water as > swamp for light and heavy tanks, except that they can't fire. -HJC] Actually the terrain depends on the river bottom -- some rivers would just be regular dirt, others would be Instant Armor Death. Reminds me: Is anyone else curious as to why tanks in OGRE seem to be lacking snatch straps and/or winches for occasions where the driver forgets to turn away from the swamp? [They're hidden to help reduce the RCS. -HJC] > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com > Futuristic gas turbines and/or diesels still need air.... Of course if > your Ogre Universe has vehicles with O2 tanks, or fuel cells (which still > need outside O2 unless they have the afore mentioned O2 tanks), this might > be justifiable... _Car Wars Tanks_ is infamous for its "submersible" AFVs. Fuel-cell power plants, electric drives, and NBC sealing equals underwater armor. (Tho' don't try using your weapons under- water....) ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: MANPADS > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com > because MANPADS kills them as well as satellites and ICBMs...:-) Umm, no -- no airplanes to begin with. Apparently the laser towers got them all; this is why only Cruise Missiles fly in _OGRE_. So there's no need for any sort of AA specialist -- that's covered by the Laser Tower operators. > (or motor-rifle and tank, or gepanzert panzergrenadier and panzer if > you're Pan Euro...:-) ). I think the Frogs may have something to say about those names, inasmuch as France appears to be the ramrod of the Paneuropean gov't. (Explains why they were the first major power to fold, I suspect. :) ) > From "Brian Bell" > The problem with a D5 SHvy is that now Ogre Mk I's are no > longer worth thier points. A Mk I is now in the same > situation as the SHvy was. 2 SHvy can take out a Mk I > main gun 2/3rds (12:3) of the time. But a Mk I can only > take out a single SHvy 1/6th of the time (4:5). Yet a Mk I > costs 2.5x that of a SHvy. Well, the flavor text does say Mk 1s and Mk 2s are under- gunned. > I feel that the SHvy was incorrectly balanced when it > was given D5. It should have been balanced against an > Ogre Mk I and Ogre Mk II rather than 2 Hvy Tanks. It was > designed, after all, as an Ogre Killer, not as a Hvy Tank > Killer or other armor killer. > > A D4 SHvy was balanced against an Ogre Mk I. 2 of them had > a 2/3rds chance of killing the Ogre Main Battery and the > Ogre had a 2/3rds chance of killing/disabling it. > > The Ogre Mk I and II should be given D5 armor for thier > Main Guns or the SHvy dropped back down to D4. Perhaps the smaller OGREs need more and bigger guns. I've been working on a scenario involving a Pikeman (Mk 1 in PE livery) and a force of INF going against four "new" SHVYs. All I know for sure is that the scenario has no "middle ground"; one side is going to get wiped early on. Sometimes it's the PE force, sometimes it's the NAC. So I can't tell if the SHVYs are out-of-whack or not. CF ============================== From: stephan beal Subject: D5 SHVY > From: "Chris French" > > From: stephan beal > > > > i agree, but i also agree that D4 is too weak for it's cost (i avoided > > SHVYs until the D5 change). i wouldn't quite say it's worth 3 armor > > units, either, though. > > Last I looked, it was only worth 2. Indeed, it is. Sorry, i wasn't clear: i meant i feel that the unit is worth somewhere over 2 but not quite 3. Then again Brian Bell brings up some good points: > From: "Brian Bell" ... > situation as the SHvy was. 2 SHvy can take out a Mk I > main gun 2/3rds (12:3) of the time. But a Mk I can only > take out a single SHvy 1/6th of the time (4:5). Yet a Mk I > costs 2.5x that of a SHvy. ----- stephan stephan@einsurance.de - http://www.einsurance.de "...control is a degree of inhibition, and a system which is perfectly inhibited is completely frozen." -- Alan W. Watts ===== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: D5 SHVY << Yep, I understand all that, and the stats, but my players tend to think its a bit too good and people are just taking as many of them as they can get. I may have to limit their choices. >> The Panzerblitz problem arrives again. Russian Armies with full motorization and tons of armor units. Which did not exist until AFTER WW2... The way to handle this might be to use TO&E requirements such that the economic cost of a unit is enforced by how few you can have in any formation. I see SHVY as the assault tanks, and if OGRES are plentiful, the SHVY will be held back as the OGRE fills the job slot. ===== From: David Morse Subject: D5 SHVY >>Finally, a question. Since putting the SHVY up to D5, has anyone else >>found that it is a bit too tough? Yes. 2 armor is too little. 3 armor is too much. So charge 2.5 armor. I've played it a bit and its about right. At 2.5 armor its only real weakness is against bigger Ogres, and even then its no pushover. (This was Henry's suggestion a few months ago) > The problem with a D5 SHvy is that now Ogre Mk I's are no > longer worth thier points. A Mk I is now in the same > situation as the SHvy was. 2 SHvy can take out a Mk I > main gun 2/3rds (12:3) of the time. But a Mk I can only > take out a single SHvy 1/6th of the time (4:5). Yet a Mk I > costs 2.5x that of a SHvy. The SHVYs get the gun, but that's not end of story. The Ogre will still ram at least one of them to death. ===== [Except that SHVYs ram like little Ogres, remember? -HJC] ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html