====== OGRE Digest, Feburary 27th, 2003 (Last: February 25th) ======== ===== Raid Comments and Questions From: "Paul Chapman" ===== infantry capturing armor From: David Morse ===== Ogre Defense From: "Herb Diehr" From: stephan beal From: "Chris French" ===== Aide de Camp II From: John McKnight ===== _OGRE Book_ errata From: "Chris French" ============================== From: "Paul Chapman" Subject: Raid Comments and Questions > From: Andrew Walters > > At DunDraCon last weekend we had a tournament with a Mark IV in a > Raid scenario. Went pretty well, but I had these observations about > playing and opposing the Ogre in this awesome scenario: > > #3 The Ogre can keep killing things until its taken a beating, then > drop into the water and escape unscathed (its a pretty sure bet you > have no HWZ left at that point). To prevent this and force him to > leave the honest way (and thus earlier), take a platoon of Marines > and keep them out of the action during the entry phase, then get them > behind the Ogre, into the water, blocking the river. > Andrew > ===== > #3 It depends on what the defense of marines in water is. Were you > using Shockwave (no bonus) or Ogre Minis (almost unkillable)? Paul, can > you'll errata some clarity here? (Water as woods is fine to me.) I'm going to disagree with Henry here; both Shockwave and OM give Marines the same protection. Shockwave does not specifically grant a defensive bonus, because one is inherent in the positioning of "underwater" -- i.e. "Only attacked by HWZ, MHWZ, or Ogre missiles, and only at 1/2 strength." This is stated with a bit more clarity in OM. The Marines greatest strength is the ability to attack while in/under water ("...fight equally well on land and on (or in) water." Shockwave 3.016). So a platoon of Marines, sitting in a pond, should scare the heck out of an Ogre, especially one that just wants to get off the board. Does this make the Marines worth more than their listed 4 vp cost? Possibly, and perhaps even probably. Mark that down as "clarify and re-playtest for OM2." [This has been an official message from Steve Jackson Games' Miniatures Division.] Paul Chapman http://www.sjgames.com/minis Miniatures Division Manager Steve Jackson Games paul@sjgames.com ===== [I don't have the complete quote with me, but Paul has indicated in various places that the Paneuropean GEV as a 1/60th scale Macroture and the Mk. VI Ogre in plain old 1/285th scale will be available from Warehouse 23 either in March or April with other items to come. -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: infantry capturing armor I was playtesting a scenario where, in the end, two missile tanks and one heavy tank were barricaded up in a 2 hex city, hopelessly surrounded by PanEuropean infantry. They were disabled and since it was the endgame the infantry really didn't have anywhere else they had to be. It occurrs to me that in this situation, the infantry might attempt to capture the vehicles, rather than destroy them. The main problem I see with this is accounting for the point defense of the tanks. In the "Beautiful" vignette, the tank's AI takes over and fires point defense guns. I need some handwaving to overcome that ... how about: called shots to take out all the sensors on the vehicle? So some brainstormed mechanics: A disabled non-ogre armor unit may be the subject of an infantry capture attempt. First have forces overrun, suffering through the defense's first fire phase. When the surviving overrunners have their chance to shoot, they declare which infantry are attempting to capture. These infantry do not have their attack strength doubled this round. They (and only they) attack the target armor and can have no better than 1-1 odds. The vehicle can be the subject of no further attacks this overrun round (i.e. the heavy tank in the background can't wait to see if the capture fails, then blow the nuts off the vehicle in a feeling of sour grapes). If the attack rolls a "D", the vehicle is destroyed, as is 1 squad of infantry. If the attack rolls an "X", the vehicle is captured. Infantry breach its hull, "subdue" the former occupants, and power off the battle computer. Thereafter the vehicle drops to D1 (its point defense is off), but is undisabled. It does not move or fire on anybody's turn - safety interlocks have to be overrided back at HQ. An opposing side may try to re-capture it, by following this procedure again. The captured vehicle will usually award double victory points, see your local scenario for details. ============================== From: "Herb Diehr" Subject: Ogre Defense > [SJ has changed his mind about the defense value of a Mark II's > secondaries over time, which I think is the starting point for this, but > really I don't see the point in having a less armored Ogre after the Mark > I. -HJC] I'm thinking the Mk I's and II's came out pretty closely; if I'm wrong, then skip the D3 Mk II. Herb Diehr ===== From: stephan beal Subject: Ogre Defense > From: "Herb Diehr" > > I'm putting forward a change of thinking here, where the earliest Ogres > had D3 for their main. Then changed to D4 during the time-period where > most games take place (and before the changes make the SHY D5), then > progress to D5 late in the wars, just as the SHY does. In my mind there were no historical changes to bring the SHVY up to D5 - i've always considered it to be a retroactive change in the game universe. Retroactive, if you will. That is, there aren't battles with some old SHVYs running around at D4, alongside the newer models with D5. Not in my mind, anyway. > [SJ has changed his mind about the defense value of a Mark II's > secondaries over time, which I think is the starting point for this, but > really I don't see the point in having a less armored Ogre after the Mark > I. -HJC] Additionally, the MB DEF was misprinted on the late-80's Deluxe Edition (printed as D3, with the SB printed at D2). i didn't know for a long time that it was a misprint, and always wondered why people people had such a problem with Ogres. The DEF of the MB (or was the the SB?) for the MkII (or was it the MkI?) was listed as one lower in the GEV rules, and i've never heard a straight answer about whether that was a misprint or intentional. > From: Sethkimmel@aol.com > Subject: SuperHeavy > > > Where is the exception "except for entering water" noted? It's not in the > > tabletop rules, AFAIK. In Shockwave (or is it the Reinforcements Pack?) > > it simply says, "... moves as an Ogre," which i must assume means that it > > may travel under water. Or is this one of those minis/tabletop > > differences? > > The terrain effects matrix implies this by NOT mentioning the superheavy at > all... Because the terrain effect matrix is in the original GEV rules, where the SHVY doesn't exist. The rules for the SHVY simply say "moves as an Ogre!" (the exclamation point is not mine). > [And then it was fixed in the errata at > http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/errata/deluxe-gev.html -HJC] "Terrain Effects Table: The Water row of the Heavy Tank, Superheavy Tank, Ogre column has a misprint. The HVY cannot enter. The SHVY behaves as an Ogre." To me that pretty clearly says the SHVY can move in water. Quasi-unrelated: "5.083 Effects on GEVs: A GEV approaching the edge of a body of water must end its movement phase at the edge of the water, and may neither move onto nor leave the water until its next movement phase. A road which slopes directly into water is considered to be a ramp, and any land that slopes directly into the water is considered a beach. A GEV which enters or leaves water via a ramp or beach may do so without stopping or incurring other penalties. GEVs using a ramp may still get the road bonus." i'm confused: What land-meets-water hex DOESN'T "slope directly into the water"? The only one i can think of is perhaps the Big Bridge hexes? Is this another Minis thing? > of infantry on a bridge there's nothing to keep the grunts from blowing the > bridge on their first fire round. "We'll see you in hell, you souless > hunk of tin!" Now THAT's a trick i've gotta try out. :) -- ----- stephan ===== [If the GEV map is ever revised, it might be fun to put a few beach and ramp markers on the map. -HJC] ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Ogre Defense > From: "Herb Diehr" > I'm putting forward a change of thinking here, where the earliest Ogres > had D3 for their main. Then changed to D4 during the time-period where > most games take place (and before the changes make the SHY D5), then > progress to D5 late in the wars, just as the SHY does. OK -- so this is just your idea, and not something that's been published; that's the question I wanted answered. (I don't own any of the mini-equipped _OGRE_ products.) > This makes the game dependant upon a time-table, just as SFB and ASL. > However, this allows much greater expansion and reality (?) to be seen. Have I ever mentioned how much I *HATE* ASL and SFB? :) Seriously: I don't think the SHVY change was supposed to rep- resent a new model -- I think it was just a rules change. (Henry, can you confirm this?) [SJ or Paul would be the authorities here. AFAIK, all of the Superheavies everywhere were revised into being D5 from the very start. -HJC] > I think this game stopped being a simple 'lunch-time' game with the > release of GEV. Over 1,000 counters puts it in the same realm as SFB > and ASL, without the organization. Sorely needed. A strategic game > would lend a good framework... Any publishable ideas? 1,000 counters? I've never seen more than 40 used at one time. As for a strategic game: First, we'd need maps that simulate ac- tual battlefields. I recall asking once if anyone knew of a source for maps of Europe which could be used to generate "real" battlefields, but never got an answer. Second: Tables of Organization and Equipment. I suggested cribbing from _Twilight:2000_'s Vehicle Guides (_US Army VG_, _Soviet VG_, and _NATO VG_), altho' about half the units in those manuals do not exist in _OGRE_ (mortars, mobile AA, and such). Third: For the actual games, use sheets of notebook paper to list unit formations -- I can fit one of the 8-unit LGEV platoons from _OGRE Miniatures_ on one line. As units get whacked, simply cross them off. Also, a unit's status (stuck, in overrun, etc.) can be noted on the paper, as well as "who-killed-whom". If I had a web site, I could post an example. [Shatner] Must.... learn.... HTML.... [/Shatner] > From: David Morse > Uh-huh, and 1000 VP "Smurfs" can automatically destroy missle crawlers > in "Gargamel's Castle" terrain, but that doesn't make them a good buy. *HUH*!? > [LGEVs are better. Shoot then ram and you can draw them in from a > great distance. -HJC] So, LGEVs are basically "Special Attack" units.... :P (Does Nihon call its LGEVs "Ohkas"?) > [Marines are doubled in underwater overruns (maybe) and Ogres cannot > fire back so twice a turn the marine squad gets two shots without > response. -HJC] Wouldn't the OGRE be smart enough to risk popping off a couple mininukes, and use water-hammer effect to whack the MarINF? (It risks hurting itself, but needs must when the Devil vomits in your teakettle.) [Can I share an interesting quote from the rulebook? GEV 6.137: "Hostile Ogres may fight each other underwater - missiles only." Combine with the "new" rapid fire missile racks, stir in some marines and you've got atomic gumbo. -HJC] > [I did not say two guns, I said two weapons. One of these weapons is a > gun and the other weapon is a set of treads. -HJC] Ah. OK. I have never considered the ram as a weapon, since it does near as much damage to the OGRE as to the target. [Not in GEV, where the Ogre does not take damage from ramming armor units in Overruns. Ogres are greatly favored in overruns in GEV and should not brake to avoid hostiles. -HJC] > From: Andrew Walters > Subject: Raid Comments and Questions > > At DunDraCon last weekend we had a tournament with a Mark IV in a > Raid scenario. That was you? Then you saw me -- briefly. (Remember the guy who walked in, and shortly thereafter walked off again, saying how he would solve your odd-number-of-players problem? That were me. Sorry for taking a hike like that, but when I heard the word "tournament" -- well, I've had nothing but bad experi- ences with SJG-connected tourneys. :P ) >Went pretty well, but I had these observations about > playing and opposing the Ogre in this awesome scenario: > > #1 I'm working on a record sheet for this scenario. I have yet to > play a game where it wasn't a mistake-prone chore to keep track of > who blew up what. We have a good sheet for the Ogre, we need a sheet > for the map. See my earlier remarks about notebook paper. > #2 One guy swapped all his Inf for Hvy Weapons Inf. He got stomped. > Since the scenario lets you set up anywhere on the map I think you > want to drop your infantry down front in the city hexes along the > road and off to the sides in the woods. You'll lose some to missiles, > but its hard to dig 3 squads out of a city hex, which forces the Ogre > to go around or overrun the infantry. Win-win! Well, inasmuch as that's what INF is for.... :) > #3 The Ogre can keep killing things until its taken a beating, then > drop into the water and escape unscathed (its a pretty sure bet you > have no HWZ left at that point). To prevent this and force him to > leave the honest way (and thus earlier), take a platoon of Marines > and keep them out of the action during the entry phase, then get them > behind the Ogre, into the water, blocking the river. Umm, at this point, I enter Munchkin Mode: Every _OGRE_ weapon fires *NUCLEAR* shells. Simply shoot- ing into the water should cause enough water-hammer effect to do severe harm to submerged objects. (The password is "dyna- mite fishing", or for horror movie fans, "Smile you son of a --".) > #4 The attacker virtually has to drive up the East side of the map, > there are just way too many city hexes over there. Most people put CP > Alpha (30vp) in the Northeast corner, but I think you need it in the > Northwest corner; this tempts the Ogre toward the point-barren West > side or a leisurely, painful stroll across the width of the map. Is this the Basic GEV map? CF ============================== From: John McKnight Subject: Aide de Camp II Hi Henry, Has anyone made an Aide de Camp II rendition of Ogre? Is SJ Games planning on selling any renditions if somebody makes them? I've been looking at ADC2 & so far it has been an amazing war game design tool that could be used to test a lot of what-if scenarios as well as introduce more counters that aren't currently in the mix for the game. What's the scoop with GURPS lately? I went to a comic book store & it seems everyone & their grandma has moved to D20. I often wonder why this never happened with the GURPS system. Later, JM ===== [The best link I have at the moment is http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/9617/cyberboard.html Which reminds me that I need to clean up the DMOZ category at http://dmoz.org/Games/Board_Games/Science_Fiction/Ogre/ -HJC] ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: _OGRE Book_ errata Per request, I am sending you errata: In "Back To The Drawing Board", I found the following: 1) The Missile Tank calculation is incorrect. The subtotals are not 36 and 36, but 36 and 32 (At. and De. respectively). Thus, the MSL's final total is 68, not 72, and its Point Value is 5&5/6, not 6. (To bring it to 6 points even, upgrade its Movement Mode from TNK to HVY.) 2) The final sum total of the SHVY is 158.35, not 141.55. This means the unit is worth *more* than 12 VP, not less. Also, a suggestion: 1) Few to none of the articles mention where they were first pub- lished. Somewhere, the place of first publication should be men- tioned, so that readers have some idea of the age of an article. Thank you. Chris French ============================= Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html