====== OGRE Digest, March 9th, 2003 (Last: March 4th) ======== ===== Strategic Game From: David Morse From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com ===== Underwater Combat From: stephan beal From: "Chris French" ===== Missile GEV and the breakthrough wonder-defense From: David Morse ===== Megacon Macrotures From: Servitor@aol.com ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Strategic Game > From: "Chris French" > Considering the number of battalions involved in WW2, any > France-sized strategic BG is going to be a counter-hog. (Not > sure if the Last War had more or fewer units involved.) I gave some thought to that: WWII Last War Small states Continent+ sized states Low pop.den states Mexico City. 'Nuff said. "We can do it" chick Autofacs! Boot camp Boot camp + Hypno-training 6 year war 30 year war 1-3 front wars 3-5 front wars All in all I think it means the Last War has more units in country at any given time. YMMV. While we're on the subject, I often think that by 2050 Moore's law has pretty much stopped. If computers keep truckin at the rate they've been, a high-end military grade Ogre AI, developed for trillions of dollars in 2050, should cost less than a McChicken sandwich by 2090. So Moore's law has stopped. And not just in computers, but the "Moore's law" equivalaent for tank evolution. Or is it going on in the background and we just don't notice? (e.g. this year point defense got 3x better, but we don't notice because shell mid-course-evasion also got 3x better). In any case, there's noticably less radical breakthroughage in conventional armor. Ogres are a bit less staic: commpare a MkIII (2071) and a MkV (2076) and a MkVI (2088). Looks about like the tank-invention-curve between pre-WW2 tanks, post-WW2 tanks, and late 1950s tanks. Someone pointed out to me that between 1900 and 1970, aviation had been undergoing a Moore's law shaped increase in capability. Then as far as passenger technology went, it stopped. Dead. All those people that thought we'd be flying to work like George Jetsen by now had history on their sides, and they all were wrong. Ever notice how nothing really gets done in the Last War? I mean, yeah Britain goes into civil disorder and is conquored, and yeah the PE forgot to turn on their battle computers in 2093, but essentially about as much turf changed hands in the first 20 years of LW as in any given year of WW2. Funny thing that, since there were huge technological seesaws PC writes: > Why do we need two sets of rules? _One_ book, _one_ set of rules, covering > _one_ world. Realistically, the primary differences between OM and Ogre/GEV > amount to "OM switches 1 hex to 2" and has more pages." Superheavies in O.hex are awesome weapons. Superheavies in O.mini are ravening, unstoppable, Ogre smiting God weapons. Care to unify the two? ===== [Simple, Superheavies do 3 thread units damage when ramming or rammed by an Ogre and then they die. (Of whiplash if nothing else.) -HJC] ===== From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com Subject: Strategic Ogre << Considering the number of battalions involved in WW2, any France-sized strategic BG is going to be a counter-hog. (Not sure if the Last War had more or fewer units involved.) >> As many units, but the number of people/vehicals will be far lower per unit than WW2. At a guess, 12 Ogres would be considered a "division" and have nearly the firepower of a WW2 ARMY... Ogre Scenarios are on the scale of PanzerBlitz. I had heard someone had done a PB simulation of the battle of the Bulge, but I would hate to try to do that... ============================== From: stephan beal Subject: Underwater Combat > From: "Paul Chapman" Thanks for the clarifications. :) > However, the marine weapons are specially modified to work underwater. OM > says, "...units under water may be attacked only by Marines (at normal > strength),..." Aha - i've never seen the OM rules, and can't justify ordering them "just to clarify some minor points in the hex game." To be very clear: the whole marines thing is actually a very minor point, in terms of my game play, and i appologize if i seem to be beating a dead horse or over-extending this thread. i'm mostly doing it to help make a point about the necessity of using clear, unambiguous language terms in future rules. All in all the rules, as written, have served me quite well over they years (and when they haven't, i've fudged it or come to this list for popular opinion on any given point). To be honest, i've never actually used marines in play because, as presented in Shockwave, they are simply not worth their cost. Perhaps they are in OM, however. > > Don't forget the "paper version"! (Some of us don't use the minis - too > > expensive to ship overseas and not enough space in small European > > apartments to play. Hell, for that matter there's not enough space on the > > small European streets to play OM.) > > Why do we need two sets of rules? _One_ book, _one_ set of rules, covering > _one_ world. Realistically, the primary differences between OM and Ogre/GEV > amount to "OM switches 1 hex to 2" and has more pages." One set of rules would be /ideal/, but here we are /25 years/ into the Ogreverse, some 12 years since the original OM printing, and there has been no visible merging of these rules sets. Indeed, they only seem to get further and further apart - marines and cruise missiles being points which have come up repeatedly. i'm /not complaining/ that we have seen no "merging activity" on this front, i only point that out to show that we, the average players, have no reason to believe that such a convergence is planned. i'd be /all for/ a single-source set of rules, but i am a bit leary: any minis game is inherently more complex, and i wonder how such a rules consolidation would "break" the hex rules, just as i wonder how some of the hex game's simplifications would overly-simplify OM. My greatest concern is breaking either game by shoe-horning in rules which may be an inherent part of the *format* of the game. An off-the-cuff example of this might be the handling of the "extra bits of terrain" which "spill over" outside of a hex (i.e., cities and forests). Certainly those have some affect on play in OM(?), but explicitely have no effect on play in Ogre/hex. > Hey, I'm game for a comprehensive rulebook that covers both hexes and > tape measures if SJ is. -HJC] Amen. Thanks again, Paul, for your patient clarifications. ----- stephan ===== From: "Chris French" Subject: Underwater Combat > From: AvaheilDotter@aol.com > > The missiles can accelerate AFTER launch. The mass drivers HAVE to > impart all velocity before the round leaves the barrel. Thus, the missile > won't splat against the water while an artillery shell would. Video > example in Sea Hunt of this is why skin divers use spear guns instead of > regular guns. Bullets go about 6-8 feet in the water... Mass drivers accelerate shells throughout the length of the barrel -- a mass driver is a *series* of magnetic rings, not just an initial ring. (For that matter, the series of rings is the sole reason a mass driver needs a barrel at all....) Also, I wasn't thinking of long-range underwater combat -- more like "all weapons have range 1" or "0". > Hey, I'm game for a comprehensive rulebook that covers both hexes and > tape measures if SJ is. -HJC] I think it's a good idea, provided it doesn't turn _O_ into the Mongolian Cluster-Frag _Car Wars_ turned into. > From: David Morse > The poor little marines aren't so lucky. Precisely my point. And if I'm that "solid block of BPC" OGRE, then *why should I care if I'm within blast radius of my own guns*? Myself, I allow any tracked armor unit to move underwater (at 1 hex/turn). Any combat acts as Overrun Combat. Also, I distinguish between types of river bottom -- some are treated as Normal terrain, some as Swamp. Keeps the OGRE-class units from hiding underwater all game. (I'd love to see an OGRE navi- gating the bottom of the Seine -- "Thunderbrick One to Thun- derbrick Two -- what is it that ain't exactly water, and it ain't ex- actly earth?"*). [*: Watch _Blazing Saddles_] > Someone composing a filk song to backup their argument has to be some > sort of Ogre-list record. :P "Filk" /= "parody". What I did was parody. Filk includes wholly original works. I wouldn't be so blunt about it, except that my filk-writing SO would never forgive me for not pointing this out. (She's touchy about this topic. :) ) CF ===== [Anybody for supercavitating main battery shells? -HJC] ============================== From: David Morse Subject: Missile GEV and the breakthrough wonder-defense Henry, With "clarification" of GEV-water-boundary rules, I think you'll find more demand for your 2/3 M3-2 D2 Missile GEV now... ===== [They're even fun as about one third of a fuzzy on the Ogre map against wallflower Ogres. "We can dance, even if you don't want to. We can blow your treads away. Cause your treads won't dance and if they won't dance then we'll blow them all awaaaay. Hover dance, hover dance. Everything's under control." -HJC] ============================== From: "Charles Barnett" Re: Subject: Monster Games Stan Leghorn wrote: >Using SPI game maps, it would not be impossible. Wonder what kind of map >the scenario for the attack on Gibraltor that was mentioned last year was >on? >Probably home-made, but there was a scenario in an S&T that covered it, >IIRC... Home-made, that is correct. Blank hexmap, 3/4" I think, cut/paste and color marker. The cartography was from a road club map of the area. It sounded very time consuming. Resulting map covered much of two game tables shoved together on the long sides. ============================== From: Servitor@aol.com Subject: Megacon Macrotures Hi all. Megacon was great. Sorry that no one from the list could make Ogre Macrotures, we had a blast. (Pun fully intended) Ogres lost due to letting too many GEVs survive, which came back to haunt them later. Once again, the SHVYs acted as "missile sinks", sucking up a total of three missiles each. These would have been better spent killing six (or more) GEVs. If I ever start letting INF hitch rides on tanks like they do in the rules, it will be hell on the Ogres. Ogre Macrotures possibly forthcoming from SJ Games? WOOT!! WOOT!! (If you're not a First Person Shooter enthusiast, never mind.) You better believe I will be buying them! (Huh?, Mr. "original Macrotures" boy is going to buy SJ OGRE Macros? Why?) 'Cause, MY macrotures are 1/35th scale. While they look impressive as hell, they are also hell to lug around. (Two giant tool-box sized cases, one for the Ogres and HWZs and the other for the armor. As well as two smaller cases for rulebooks, INF and other odds and ends.) So 1/60th scale macros will be MUCH easier for me (and other folks) to lug around in sizeable numbers. Enough so (I hope) that folks will consider bringing them to conventions to play against others. The whole Marine/underwater thang...: I've always considered the Marines to be able to choose depth level at will (fire at surface targets and submerged Ogres normally.) When Marines were introduced into the game, I've always allowed my opponenets (those with Ogres) to fire their APs at normal strength against Marines. However, I do NOT allow the Ogres to "overrun" underwater because their manueverability is too limited on a river or sea bed. For those of you who think that is too liberal, then I suggest the following: "Ogres may enable their APs to fire at normal attack strenght underwater at an additional VP cost of +1 per AP. If an Ogre wishes to do this, it must enable ALL of it's APs thusly. Ogres may NOT engage in overrun combat while underwater, nor may other units (i.e. Marines) overrun a submerged Ogre. Marines and (water enabled) Ogre APs fire at normal attack strengths." Defense of underwater units: I've always considered the underwater defense bonus due to the dificulty in targeting something underwater when you are above water (just think destroyer vs. submarine. Yeah, I know the anology is crude as hell, but its valid.) Now, neither the Marines OR Ogres should get a DEF bonus when attacked by other "underwater" capable units. Missile and HWZ ATT strength is halved because of its easier to jam/intercept/avoid them when underwater. In fact, I bet the only reason HWZs can even damage Ogres underwater is due to the "pressure wave" effect. (Since HWZs fire very large warhead "smart-missiles" these would have more blast effect than direct fire capability.) To sum up: Submerged Ogres and Marines should be nearly impossible to kill from the surface, but should be easy meat for each other underwater. Best, John Hurtt (Servitor@aol.com) -Yes, I'm a Game Geek. How did you know? -Please visit my website at: http://hometown.aol.com/Servitor/Ogreindex/ogrindex.htm "Walk softly and carry a big stick" Personally, I prefer a taser. Lots more fun... ===== [Some final notes, Michelle Barrett of WH23 has the following comment. "Ogre Miniatures: Combine Set 9 - Lasers and Laser Tower http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?SJG10-2109 We found four copies hiding amongst other sets; the figures in this set are not currently available as individual miniatures." And Sage has offered to convert this list over to a conventional automatic mailing list. What do you'll think of removing the moderator from slowing the neutrons down so you'll get instaneous response? Might give me some more time to arrange things topically so that instead of saying read the entire archive, I could could point somebody at a specific index section. -HJC] ============================= Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html