====== OGRE Digest, May 10th, 2003 (Last: May 7th) ======== ===== question about Jump infantry From: stephan beal ===== Question about infantry cost From: "Chris French" From: David Morse From: "Clayton Springer" ===== future military history From: "Chris French" From: David Morse ============================== From: stephan beal Subject: question about Jump infantry This is mainly for Henry, but i'd be interested in hearing others' opinions on it: Regarding: http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/infantry.htm (the section on Jump infantry.) "The two surviving jump squads jump into an overrun against the normal squad. In the first defenders fire phase the normal squad rolls a 2-1 for a 3 and bags one of the jump squads. In the first attackers fire phase, the remaining jump squad rolls a 2 on a 2-1 and eliminates the defender. Then the survivor jumps away and other jump squads move unhindered through the area." Might it not make sense that the defender (or anyone in range) get to take a knock-down-the-jumper shot before the overrunning jumpers land into their hex? If that is the case, what would a suggested point cost change be (if any)? The major down-side to this addition, of course, is that the defender gets two shots at an overrunning jumper: one to shoot him out of the sky and one as the standard defender-shoots-first-in-overruns. (Of course, the jumpers have the option of /walking/ into the defender's hex, avoiding the possibility of being shot down before the first overrun round). (ooop - just found a typo on that page: 4th-to-last paragraph, first letter of first word is not capitalized: "under this optional rule..."). -- ----- stephan stephan@einsurance.de - http://www.einsurance.de "Heisenberg may have slept here." -- ??? ===== [Thanks, I will take another look at these. -HJC] ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: Question about infantry cost > From: "Clayton Springer" > All I really want to know is the answer to this question: Why do infantry > platoons cost 6? Esp. since according to Mr. Cobb's formula, they're only worth 5 VP. It may not seem like much, but 4x HVY = 24 pts., while 4x INF:3 = 20; room for a couple more INF squads, or a couple HW. > I suggest they are twice as expensive as they should be. According to the article with the formula, an INF squad/platoon has a Defense Modifier 2.54 times greater than a "normal" unit, due to "terrain effects and less effect from D CRT results on platoons". (For reference, Marines get a bonus of 3.05.) While the formula is accurate is most respects, its treatment of INF is far, far, *far* too kind. INF do *not* suffer "less effect from D CRT results" -- in fact, INF suffers *worse*. No other unit in the game suffers permanent damage from a D CRT result. INF's only "defense" against D results is sheer numbers -- in a 1:1 attack, a INF:1 dies 2/3 of the time, while a INF:2 is cut in half; meanwhile, an armor unit simply "takes a nap" for a turn. I have been fiddling with the formula for a bit, and have determined that to justify its Defense Modifier, INF should be immune to D results altogether -- 18 2-meter-long targets spread over an area 1,500 meters across are *not* that easy to kill (18 being a 3-squad INF unit). This, plus their 2x Defense bonus in most terrain, justifies a DM of 3. But this only puts them at a total of [21/12=] 1.75 pts. To bring them to their given 2 pt. value, their speed must be increased to 3. (Yes, this does obviate the need to ride on tanks, but that's too bad. :) ) > Most of the advice in GEV centers around more and more hvy tanks. (At the > expense of GEV and Missle tanks.) > > Allowing 2 platoons for a hvy tank, will give the player who takes all hvy > tanks something to think about. While Missle tanks (and GEV) can probably > gobble up infantry. Even a "mere" MSL tank will wipe out a INF:3 in at most 3 shots. (Figure one squad dies every turn; oh, by the way, the INF will never catch the MSL unless the terrain is hopelessly infarcted.) > Putting a squad on top of each tank helps ward off such silliness. Yes. Instead the LGEVs waft along just out of the HVYs' range, and pound them to scrap over several turns. CF ===== From: David Morse Subject: Question about infantry cost > From: "Clayton Springer" > All I really want to know is the answer to this question: Why do infantry > platoons cost 6? > > I suggest they are twice as expensive as they should be. On the orange map I agree with you. On the green map I'm not sure they're *that* bad, but I'll readily agree 2vp/squad is OBVIOUSLY way too high. > [I personally am rather infamous for the LGEV devouring swarm technique. > > In the clear 6 Heavies are attacked by a dozen LGEVs, getting 1 kill > and 2 disrupts. Then rather than sensibly backing up, the LGEVs overrun > the three alert tanks and destory them at a cost of one LGEV per tank > killed. And then the nine surviving LGEVs buzz through this hole in the > line to raise havoc. > > Putting a squad on top of each tank helps ward off such silliness. An INF squad costs 2 vp. For just 1 VP more you can put a LGEV on top of each tank, which can even fight back, instead of waiting passively to be overrun. :) Chris French: > INF should only be 5 VP, according to Cobb (the formula, that is). Because infantry cost relies on some constants not used anywhere else in the formula, and because HJC gets to pick them however he wants, you're really just looking at Henry's personal guestimate, no more or less valid than when any other experienced player gives their opinion. > From: "David & Robin" > > In my opinion Infantry really shine in Ogre. The small, tight map, and the > Infantry's ability to scramble across rubble lines make them very nasty > little buggers. On GEV maps it is a very different story. They are just too > slow and too short ranged to be much use. The GEV-PC and the ability to > hitch rides on tanks help, but leave the infantry vulnerable to spillover > fire. I haven't played OM enough to know how infantry fare there. The > specialist infantry types are nice, but at twice the price of regular > infantry I seldom find them worth taking. If only a GEV-PC/Infantry > discount combo was available, then they might start to seem cost effective. Yes. I think the following units need to be examined holistically and have all their values reconsidered together: INF MARINE HW-INF GEV-PC ENGINEER In particular it needs to be spelled out what the game means when some scenario gives you "8 armor and 30 squads of infantry". The result should be structured in such a way that GEV-PCs are actually worth it. But at the same time, the result should also lead to someone buying infantry in a ceasefire-collapse style engagement if allotted "200 vp of units". 3xHW-INF riding a GEV-PC are going to be hard to balance. Perhaps HW-INF shouldn't be able to fire if they were mounted on a moving vehicle. ===== From: "Clayton Springer" Subject: Question about infantry cost Dear HJC -- [I personally am rather infamous for the LGEV devouring swarm technique. In the clear 6 Heavies are attacked by a dozen LGEVs, getting 1 kill and 2 disrupts. Then rather than sensibly backing up, the LGEVs overrun the three alert tanks and destory them at a cost of one LGEV per tank killed. And then the nine surviving LGEVs buzz through this hole in the line to raise havoc. Putting a squad on top of each tank helps ward off such silliness. You can see my logic (such as it is) for costing infantry at 6VPs per platoon at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/infantry.htm -HJC] ----- I read your logic, although I didn't accept it. I didn't puzzle out the math, but I did put some numbers in your very cool calculator: http://www.io.com/~hcobb/gev/formcalc.html If you put in a 3/1 D3 M2 heavy tank you get 2.833. Are you trying to tell me that doubled on overruns and hvy tank --> infantry terrian effects are really worth doubling the value of the unit? ---- As for warding off silliness I would suggest that put infantry on tanks, would call for a switch to attacking the infantry which with a D1 is going to be beat up. And remember those inf are worth 2 VP each. then you move back. Then the next round you attack and overrun the tanks. Directing your fire at those tanks with inf still on them. spillover will mob them up. I still think inf is too expensive. Clayton ===== [OK, so everybody is saying here that a platoon of grunts is never worth the same as a Heavy tank, right? And Heavies can stand up to the LGEVs by staying behind woods. But what if there's grunts in those woods? A Heavy tank rumbles up and fires at a platoon of infantry in woods. With a roll of 4 there is no effect. The grunts return fire and roll a 3 causing naptime for the tankers and then follow up with another 3 making that nap last forever. Later a GEV comes by and fires over and over at the grunts, reducing their woodland home to rubble. And let's not mention those Battlefields maps that are full of swamp. The big problems in GEV ain't the infantry. They're Superheavy tanks (bug in appling the formula, 15 VPs is about right) and missile units. (Too weak, need to add rules for suppression of enemy missile defenses.) I agree that Evil Stevie's HWI are a balancing problem. That's why I made my own. Atk 1/3, D1, M2, 4 VPs per squad, not doubled in overruns, ammo as limitless as any other unit, otherwise mixable with other infantry types. -HJC] ============================== From: "Chris French" Subject: future military history > From: stephan beal > Reminds me very much of a scene i read in one of the Bolo books about 12 > years ago, where a Bolo is hidden under debris for years before some > kid(?) wakes it up. You've just described 85% of the Bolo stories out there. CF ===== From: David Morse Subject: future military history > From: stephan beal > The question now is: have you actually played out such a scenario? It > sounds like it'd take several days. I hadn't really considered it up to your suggestion. Lessee ... only about 2000 hexes from the arctic to Moscow ... that's about 60 mapsheets long ... t'would be mighty long game... > [Sleeping Bolos seem to be as common as sleeping princesses, but who'd > want to kiss one? -HJC] Bride of Bolo? Seven Brides for Seven Bolos? > From: "Chris French" > Oh, and as to the article's last paragraph: Give my regards to the > Dept. of Homeland Security when they come for you. Yeah. the terrorists won (TM) Capricorn BLU-114/B digicash 22nd SAS USCOI airframe hackers Europol PLO arrangements IMF CID fraud computer terrorism Adriatic LABLINK Armani CIA Clinton blackjack quarter ICE Ashcroft Cocaine Reno Forte high security militia Vince Foster Rubin Perl-RSA AK-47 SWAT Delta Force Indigo Aldergrove MD5 Maple undercover Treasury enigma Legion of Doom gamma Ron Brown NORAD nitrate Comirex genetic espionage SDI Serbian Ft. Bragg Aladdin Centro Albania STARLAN basement subversive offensive information warfare industrial intelligence warfare BRLO ============================== Send all submissions or mailing list changes or problems to ogre@sjgames.com Archives for this mailing list may be found at http://www.io.com/~hcobb/ General online support for the OGRE game is at http://www.sjgames.com/ogre Ogre, G.E.V., Shockwave and other products mentioned here are trademarks or registered trademarks of Steve Jackson Games. All rights are reserved by SJ Games. This material is used here in accordance with the SJ Games online policy at http://www.sjgames.com/general/online_policy.html