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Ogre postings on old Illuminati BBS

January 1992 through January 1993

45: New vehicles...tell me if you like...
By: Jack_in_the_Green [544]
Date: 23:55 1/11/92

An inovative design from the close of the Paneuropan/Combine struggle was the Gun Truck. No one source is credited with the design of the gun truck, it was probably discovered many times and lost with the discovering unit, and no written accounts existed until very late in the war.

What a Gun Truck consists of is a regular cargo bearing truck with a stripped down Light Tank, or more rarely a Light GEV, in the bed. The Tank, or GEV, is nothing more except a hull with a gun. The engine, suspension, tracks ( or phelum chamber ) and all other unneccessary equipement (in some cases this included some of the vehicles BPC armor) have been removed.

The stats for a Gun Truck are as follows:

Defensive Strength: 0 (1 in town or vs spillover)
Attack Strength: 2 (1 for Lt GEV body)
Range: 2
Move: 4 MP
Move Costs : as truck road = 1, town = 2, clear = 4
all others = NA
The cost for this unit is 1/6 armor units.

Note: A Hovertruck model of this vehicle was never produced as the chassis could not handle the weight.

Heavy Gun Truck : A relative of the Gun Truck, the Heavy Gun Truck was built with with a reinforced suspension and, as it could handle more of a load, was covered with make-work BPC armor. The statistics are as for the Gun Truck except for a defense of 1 at all times. The cost for this unit is 1/3 armor units.

Armored Cars : A cheap alternative to the Light GEV, the Armored Car was a swift, rugged, all-terrain vehicle used in the roll of scout.

Defense Strength: 1
Attack Strength: 1
Range: 2
Move: 4
Move Costs: as Light Tank
may become STUCK in swamp ( see Heavy Tank )
The cost for this unit is ½ armor units

46: Thoughts to toss around
By: Jack_in_the_Green [544]
Date: 23:56 1/11/92

I have given some thought to the design of more conventional vehicles in Ogre. I the short story G.E.V. by J.D. Bell mention is made of the Hiveloc round, apparently some sort of high velocity armor piercing shell, used for direct fire versus regular vehicles. The nukes were brought out when BIG targets appeared, and an Ogre covers that bill in my book.

Actually, it makes sense for the military to have a conventional round. Otherwise every engagement results in a policy of scorthed earth. Who really wants to fight over a wasteland.

Was any more detailed history worked out for Ogre, other than what appears in the rules and the Ogre book. Who knows what the rest of the world may have in store_?

47: Shockwave, anyone?
By: The Warlock [917]
Date: 01:41 1/22/92

Is there any way to get a copy of SHOCKWAVE these days. (Maybe even an OGRE book)? (sorry 'bout the punctuation, I meant to use a ? on the first sentence)

48: Review :
By: The Traveller in Black [507]
Date: 12:57 2/2/92

Has anyone seen the review of the OGRE computer game in the latest _Mondo_2000_? Good review......

"This is Ogre (the legendary Steve Jackson game) the way it was MEANT to be played - against a merciless computer monster that doesn't scare and doesn't goof and doesn't give 3/16th of a rat's ass if you'd like to take back your last move."

Last paragraph :

"Plus, every copy purchased is more money for Steve Jackson, a great game designer and currently hip-deep in legal excrememt. Mutual benefit."

Is that true? Does SJG still get money when people buy Ogre or Autoduel from Origin?

The Traveller in Black

49: Miniatures
By: starlord [669]
Date: 15:45 2/16/92

I juat heard a rumor that the Orgminiatures rule which were to be out this month have been postponed what's the facts on this?


50: Not only a wrong rumor, but an old
By: Illuminator [1136]
Date: 11:23 2/17/92


Ogre minis will be out by GenCon, so watch for the actual rules prolly around the same time.

51: hello? Hello? HELLO! is there anybody
By: KC [751]
Date: 22:18 4/16/92

is there anyone out there? i've been playing ogre (off and on, depending on availability of opponents,...) since the dark ages before the existance of sjgames. i have been peeking at the g-files and am interested in knowing if the roll-yer-own ogre rules will ever see the light of day, if the fog-of-war rules will be included in the minatures rules, ... any comments/discussions? while i don't have a playtest capable group here (in huntspatch, abalama) (smirk), i am still quite interested in any info. my highschool gaming group were *rabbid* OGS (ogre/gev/shockwave) players, and much work was done expanding the number and types of units available to use in support of the campaign game we used (royal we at this point. i'd left for school, and my brother took my spot. he managed to copies of *most* of the stuff...).

talk to me.....
dufus (aka KC, cletus and crash)

ps - any idea how *heavy* armor is s'posto be? how do 'copters and aircraft ever get off the ground? using fusion plants? super heated air for thrust (ac)? maybe, but 'copters!?! the rotors would be a-thrashin' fer shure!, but i babble...

52: OGRE Campaign
By: Schoon [989]
Date: 17:34 5/3/92

I've been fiddling with some ideas for an OGRE/GEV campaign and/or operational level game. Is there anyone out there who's worked on or already created something of the sort? If so, you can leave me mail here or on GEnie (SEAN.SCHOON). I'd be interested in some sort of an idea exchange.


53: campaign rules for ogre/gev/shockwave
By: KC [751]
Date: 23:08 5/7/92


the group i used to game with were rabbid ogre/gev/shockwave (*og* for short) fans. after i left for school, they came up w/ some campaign rules and (thru my brother, who also played) obtained a great portion of their notes and rules.

the basic setup for the campaign was very similar to the old sgi (?) (published strat&tactics) games. each side made up "groups" of *og* counters. they were given several "extra" group markers, which gave a bit of the fog_of_war/spoofing/spying flavor to the game (ie 'general, there are two group chits approaching, one from the east and one from the south. which do we defend against, sir?' etc...).

there were also ships and transport craft (necessary due to the way the board was laid out). numerous new units (incl lite howz, msl tanks that fire 2 ogre missiles, engineer/inf, demolition/inf, covert/inf, surface and submergible craft, but no air units. for additional ideas on *lots* of variant units, check under the 'g' (gfiles) at the command prompt, check out the ogre/gev directory for articles and **old** posts!

the terrain (for the actual og type battles) was drawn up on double sized *og* maps (color in some blank hex sheets), and provided for a greater variety in the order of battle ('whadda-ya mean, "they blew the bridge"! get me the @#&!% engineers! whadda-ya mean, "they've been detached and sent to group six"! we *need* those &%*%@#$ and we need them *now*!').

the terrain for the campaign level battles was even more interesting. i don't remember the scale, but 1 hex was roughly equal to one map sheet (as described above). the interesting bit about the big map is that it was split into three parts (seperated by 1 or more sea hexes, crossable by seafaring vessles, or an ogre (given time))! upper slabovia (i'm doing this by memory), lower slabovia, and (off to the side) the island of lesser slabovia (unaligned).

each player started with one mark vi, two or three mark threes and a bunch of inf/armor points. they also started with a city at the extreem of the continent (ie on the north tip of n.s. and the south tip of s.b.), and a smaller city or two in the middle portions of the continent. the cities could create/build/whatever various units over periods of time, and these reinforcements moved out onto the board (using more group chits...).

the primary objective seemed to be to destroy the enemy's cities, but i'm not so sure about anything else.

i'll try to locate the rules (such as i possess) and generate a better setup for you, if you're interested.

my personal logic for the starting of the game is that the combine made a "slowboat", loaded it w/ supplies and weapons and sent it to alphacenturi. the paneuropeans (not to be outdone) sent one close behind. both arrive at about the same time, stake out a claim on one of the two small continents and set up their pre-fab armorment shops. soon, each feel they have enough guns to start a slugfest, and the game starts....

btw, if anyone else is interested, *PLEASE* respond. i would *hate* to think that og is dead (sniff..) :-( (the un-smiley)

54: Ogre is far from dead...
By: Illuminator [1136]
Date: 13:30 5/8/92

and if nobody else is (and I am sure they are), I am interested. I really want to get an online ogre game going again.

55: New miniatures!
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 22:49 5/22/92

We just saw the first samples of the Ral Partha stuff for OGRE. They started by reworking the Mk V, Heavy Tank, Missile Tank and GEV - those were the best models anyway, and they're better now. For the other units they will start over from the treads up rather than "rebuilding" the old masters, but Randy Hoffa's work on the small units was just too good to throw away. I'm very pleased. Origins release. And yes, the rulebook - which will have LOTS of history and stuff - is coming along.

Date: 12:39 6/2/92

OGRE/GEV Battles In GURPS: Space

Here's one for those who enjoy GURPS:Space, and would like to play out the occasional planetside battle. This may involve the PCs commanding a mercenary unit for one of the Great Galactic Corporations, or perhaps they're rebels battling the Stormtroopers of an oppressive Empire. In either case, OGRE and GEV can easily be modified to fit the bill. A few suggeted additions to the OGRE and GEV rules are listed below:

Player Characters

Player Characters move as infantry unless they don't have powered armor, in which case they move one hex every second turn. PCs defend as infantry against attacks made by squads and vehicles. However, a PC can only be attacked if he is closer to the enemy unit than any other potential target. A PC that is destroyed in OGRE/GEV combat can roll vs Health (plus Combat Reflexes) to merely fall unconscious rather than being killed outright. PCs ordinarily cannot effectively attack armored vehicles or infantry squads alone, but listed below are a few skills that might be helpful in support of their forces. Any PC can both move and make a single skill roll in one turn.

ARMOURY: A PC with this skill can attempt to jury rig a destroyed armored vehicle and get it's weapons temporarily operational. This requires one OGRE/GEV turn. Roll the armoury skill. The number of points by which you make your skill roll is the maximum number of turns the vehicle can fire it's weapons. Using this skill on an OGRE temporarily repairs a single weapon. After this time (or if the roll is failed) the weapons are wrecked beyond repair.

MECHANIC: A PC with this skill can attempt to jury rig a destroyed armored vehicle and get it to move for a limited time. This requires one OGRE/GEV turn. Roll the appropriate mechanic skill. The number of points by which you make your skill roll is the maximum number of turns the vehicle can move. Using this skill on an OGRE temporarily repairs one tread unit. After this time (or if the roll is failed) the drive system is wrecked beyond repair.

TACTICS: A PC with this skill, stacked with a unit of infantry, can roll his tactics (+Charisma) to avoid losing one point of infantry each turn in which his hex comes under attack. Only one squad of infantry can be saved in this way, and only once per hex per turn.

STEALTH: A PC can roll his Stealth to avoid being targetted by any enemy unit within range. +2 if the PC is in city, forest, marsh, or across a river, crater or ridge from the enemy unit. -2 if the PC is in open ground.

Psionic Skills

If psionics are allowed in the campaign, the following skills will also prove useful:

TELERECEIVE: A PC with this skill can target any single enemy unit (that is within his power's range), and, if he makes his skill roll, make the opposing player declare his move for that unit next turn. He must make this move if the Telereceive roll is successful. This skill cannot be used against OGREs (They don't think).

MENTAL BLOW: A successfull attack with this skill will pin one enemy infantry or vehicle unit (within range). The unit may not move or fire for one turn (You got their sergeant). This skill cannot be used against robotic units such as OGREs.

These are only a few examples of possible skills. The creative player (or GM) will certainly think up more.

Technological Differences

Forces of differing tech levels will often clash in a GURPS: Space OGRE/GEV battle. To represent the difference in armor and weapons technology determine the difference between the TLs of the two forces. This number becomes the higher Tech force's Technical Advantage (TA) Point Total. For each point of TA, the higher TL force can either reroll one attack, OR cause his opponent to reroll one attack; once during the battle, the higher TL player then decides which roll is used. This rule works best for small games (no more than 6 armor units and 20 points of infantry on a side). For larger battles, the TA point total should be multiplied proportionally.

Alien Races and Elite Units

In science fiction battles, the elite nature of certain units or the strength and ferocity of some alien races often vastly outweighs any difference between technologies. The Fremen from Dune are an excellent example of this. Advantages based on race should be worked out by the GM beforehand to suit his campaign, and are not as easily quantified as technological advantages. This can be a lot of fun, however, as the following examples should prove:

KZINTI: Kzin infantry have double defense strength and add a +1 to their MA, however each stack of Kzinti must roll their IQ each turn to avoid moving directly toward the nearest enemy unit.

SARDAUKAR: Ordinary human infantry or armor units within one move of a Sardaukar unit must make a Fright Roll each turn to avoid fleeing in panic. Sardaukar make all attack rolls at +1.

FREMEN: Fremen units are immune to Fright Rolls caused by Sardaukar. They make all attack rolls at +2

If your own sci fi campaign doesn't make much use of armored vehicles, OGRE/GEV can still be used to resolve battles. There is effectively very little difference between a Heavy Tank and an Assault Robot in a tactical sense, and statistics for the one could certainly be used by the other in an OGRE/GEV battle. Similarly, a giant Battletech or Robotech 'Mech is not effectively different from an OGRE.

57: Question about miniatures...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 23:39 6/13/92

or, more accurately, the surfaces they are placed on. Geo-Hex, or what? It's really a waste to put miniatures that funky on just a flat mapboard...

58: We will be recomending
By: Illuminator [1136]
Date: 10:48 6/17/92

Geo-Hex as the material to use for your Ogre play. It can be done on a flat surface (just add any hosehold items for things to shoot around - or over).

59: Ogres and anything but wargames
By: Vic Rattlehead [635]
Date: 13:07 7/12/92

OPION ALERT....I.M.H.O., I kinda find the Ogre genre useless for anything but the wargames. Using them in a roleplaying environment tends to kill the PC's and anything else in the area, since very few technologies and game systems allow PC's to lob tac nukes at each other (and, unless you're a super) live for very long. I would love to take a heavy tank against a, say Warhammer (for that non-SJ game, hehe) and play maybe a turn as the tank lobs nukes 3 klicks away toward our gallant Mechwarrior (BTW-does anybody know how they resolved nukes in Battlemech?) I'm also wondering how SJ is realisticly (sp?) going to scale the Ogre minitures (again, sp-2). I'm just hoping that when the Ogre sitting over by my stereo in the living room pops off a missile at that G.E.V. under the couch, it doesn't take half the dining room with it....:) To the Illuminati...are there any plans to put out a definitive-super deluxe version of Ogre? The box set is nice, and the classic box is OK, but a deluxe big-box set consisting of GEV, Shockwave, and Ogre would be great (after all, ya did it for Green Things, one of the most unbalanced games of all time, why not do it for one of the classics of all time?) I'm probably rehashing a bunch of old stuff, but I got ired of lurking about and can't afford LD at this BBS' 2400 to read old messages! Rust in Peace, Vic Rattlehead.

60: The OGRE world CAN be
By: Illuminator [1136]
Date: 17:09 7/14/92

roleplayed! You do not have to be throwing Tac-nukes around. It is stated in a few of th Ogre stories that the nukes are only used against vehicles and mostly for Ogres. Other rounds are used to knock the snot out of Inf and other light vehicles.

You can also roleplay the people in the Towns... the spies behind enemy lines... the Lone GEV trying to break through lines... Inf v Inf battles... A squad caught behind enemy lines, any of the typical wargame scenarios are< available.

61: He dies, she dies, everybody dies...
By: Vic Rattlehead [635]
Date: 19:14 7/16/92

Sigh. But saying that GEVs use Hiveloc rounds, etc., and trying to add a "human" element to the Ogre genre spoils it...one of the things I love best about Ogre and GEV is how brutal and messy it is, a totally dehumanized, mechanized, army-munching kind of thing. Imagining one person running around in that kind of atmosphere is (to me) ludicrous, kinda like worrying about how long your PC would live in the pre-Gold Cross days of Car Wars.... Anybody remember the microgame "Helltank Destroyer"? (Just wondering, me and a friend were talking about blatant wargame ripoffs, and since we're talking about Ogre :)

62: so, what's going on here, guys........
By: KC [751]
Date: 19:22 8/27/92

not much has happened while i was away. what's the word on the ogre rules? are the old ones being scrapped in favor of the new (miniature) ones? will the old ones be revised to reflect the new ones? why has there been no discussion of what the new rules are to be? will any of the "experimental" units from the space gamer/ogre book,... be added (ie helicopters, hybrids (like the "cub" gev), ground effect ogres, submarines, surface ships (including sev's (marine landing craft) and other classes of infantry, ......) will these questions be answered? will buffy dump jeff and go out with biff?

stay tuned! (same ogre time, same ogre channel :)

63: Hmmm...
By: Electron Samurai [418]
Date: 22:04 9/2/92

Damn...now I wish I had bought the Ogre Miniatures rules and some of the Ogre lead at GenCon! Oh well, maybe next year. (Or next month, depending on if I have money when they end up in the hobby shop... :-) )


64: OGRE Miniatures Errata
By: Ted Arlauskas [37]
Date: 18:11 9/27/92

I noticed some errata in OGRE Miniatures. On page 47, subhead INF the following sentence should be deleted: "They move at half speed in swamp, forest and towns." That sentence is incorrect.

Infantry movement is not affected by those types of terrain. On the pull out cardstock chart - ORGE WEAPONS table - the Main Battery should have a defense of 4, not 3 and the Secondary Battery should have a defense of 3, not 2.

Wow! Great set of rules! My friends and I have played a half dozen games since GEN-CON and are having a blast. How about a reprint of the aircraft rules from the OGRE Book?

65: Ogre and sundry stuff
By: Cap'n Swing [1082]
Date: 15:44 9/30/92

I'd be willing to play a little on-line ogre, but I've got to find all my old ogre stuff first. I seem to remember a variant of TOM's ogre construction rules that seemed a bit more realistic... I'll see if I can dig those up.

Maybe the on-line scenario we'll play will include that. Does SJG still make an Ogre compendium? I seem to remember all the games- Shockwave, GEV, et. al. were all in one package; or at least that was what was claimed in the catalog.

66: Hey!
By: Cap'n Swing [1082]
Date: 13:32 10/5/92

Anyone out there willing to play/moderate a little on-line Ogre/G.E.V? I just found all my stuff, except for the last page of G.E.V. Just bought a N.A. Combine Mark III the other day. Highly recommended. As I don't have any other Ogre miniatures, it has it's main battery pointed at an Atlas Battlemech.

Interesting questions: What does the N.A. in N.A. Combine mean? North American? And is that Atlas the same scale as my Mk. III? -Swing (Sorry, English majors, that should be 'its' up there...)

67: Hello? Hello?
By: Cap'n Swing [1082]
Date: 19:26 10/14/92

Does anyone out there still play Ogre/G.E.V.? I've come up with a great new (well, a revamped version of Lestat's 4-year old system) system for creating Cybertanks, and it comes up with armor unit values that match the ones in The Ogre Reinforcement Pack. On the other hand, the ram damage doesn't come out quite right, but since any publication that states the ram damage of the Fencer or Mark VI is out of print, I can probably set the record askew on these matters. I'll post it (or upload it) as soon as I type it up, but here's a sample:

Mark III-X, 3 Missile Racks, 13 Internal Missiles, 2 Main Batteries, 4 Secondary Batteries, 8 Antipersonnel, 45 treads starting at MA 3. 3 dice ram damage. Worth 24 armor units.

Just goes to show how useful least-squares analysis is... incidentally, the Mark III-X weighs 299,000 kg.

68: I definately hope...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 17:00 10/21/92

that next year at Origins there will be some kind of Ogre Miniatures tournament...I think it'd be good publicity, and I'd like to match up against guys from all over the country...Would this be a possibility?

69: Yes, Yes, YES!!
By: D K Blankenship [724]
Date: 11:33 10/26/92

Doctor Z....there will be *some* sort of big Ogre Minis event there, we're just not sure which one yet......I'll let you know...

70: Ogre Mark IV mysteries By: Cap'n Swing [1082] Date: 17:46 10/26/92

How much damage does a Mark IV do when ramming anyway? Ogre Book and Ogre Minis say 4. New version of Ogre/G.E.V. says two (dice, that is). On a related note, will other Ogres become available as miniatures? I'd like to see how the really huge ones, like the Doppelsoldner and Mark VI come out. -C.S.

71: More Optional Rules for Ogre Minis
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 06:52 10/27/92

Pop Ups: Ogres judge Hull Down from their sensor balls rather than their gun turrents.

Rationale: Ogres just love to lurk behind a ridge line, pop up their sensor towers for just an instant, take a quick scan and let them have it. Just remember: Them Ogres got balls...

Limited Jamscreens:

Change the Jamscreen rules to:

When a missle is launched or moves within 30" of an enemy Jamscreen roll its saving throw:

Cruise Missile: 9+
Advanced Missile: 6+

If the missile fails this roll then roll on the results table below:

die result
1-3 Missile Moves 10" in a random direction.
4-5 Missile self destructs (no effect)
6 Missile "hops" 1 inch in a random direction, then explodes.

If at the end of the 10" random move the missile is still with 30" of the jamscreen then roll again. (against its saving throw).

Advanced Missiles are the same as regular Cruise Missiles, but cost an additional armor unit. (i.e.: 18 points for the missile, plus 6 for the crawler.)

Ogre Missiles roll as Advanced Missiles.

Rationale: Starwars will never be 100% effective...

Underwater Ogre Defence: Submerged Ogres can use their APs at half effectiveness in an underwater overrun. (i.e.: ½ point per gun rather than 1 or 2 points per.)

Rationale: This keeps them from being blownup by Marine Engineers using the charges against a missileless Ogre and explains why EVERY Ogre carries AP.

Frogman Defence: Submerged Marines may, at their option, accept an overrun by Ogres or GEVs.

Rationale: Neither Ogres nor GEVs can chase them down and no GEV carries a big enough gun to flush them out.

72: Questions about minis...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 18:51 10/28/92

Will Ral Partha be doing any more minis for some of the units which are in the book? Like, say, a Fencer design, or maybe some LGEVS?

73: Hey, Illuminator, I'm baaack!
By: Herr Wiz [175]
Date: 02:42 11/3/92

What that all means is that I've run online Ogre game(s) before (hell, I wrote the "rules" for it), and I'm up to running another, if anyone's interested. If my "rules" are still in the files section of this beast, somebody let me know, because I can't figure out how to find it. Also, if anyone wants to play a game, let me know through e-mail (I call mostly on weekends, from California, no less), and we'll see what we can get started. At least this board will be getting more activity than one po a month, in any case. As a last note, all I have to run the online game with is the old set(s) of pieces, with numbered hexes, so . . . anyone interested in plain playing? I'll be calling back on Friday or Saturday night, gentlemen.

74: Ogre Minis ramming
By: Cap'n Swing [1082]
Date: 09:39 11/3/92

Oddly enough, while the Ogre Minis rules are very clear on how many tread units an Ogre or Superheavy will lose when ramming another Ogre or Superheavy, the old rule about losing 1 tread unit for ramming any smaller unit is missing. Has this rule been modified, omitted, or what?

75: Okay, here we go.
By: Herr Wiz [175]
Date: 02:23 11/7/92

Well, what do you know? Only 5 days, and we have two willing people! Just wanted to post this to let you know what I'd prefer - the old GEV map(s), or the original Ogre map, if you really want to. Also, can we keep it kind of simple to start off with? It's been a long time since I've run a game, much less even played. Pick your sides, and let's get to it

76: Yes, Partha will be doing a lot of
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 22:51 11/19/92

new units. Especially if they sell a lot of the ones they have done so far . . . which, so far, they have. Apparently everything is going really well. Thanks for the errata notes above. The note on defense values on the reference card is correct - this is on a sticker which made it into almost every copy sold, as did the note that (p. 35, first line) an Ogre which rams a unit of equal or smaller size loses 3 treads.

The correction about infantrymovement is correct. Good catch, Tex. @#$%@#$%.

Also, correct the p. 13 description of a GEV-PC - it's worth only 3 points.

As to the question about ramming small units: In basic OGRE, an Ogre loses tread points for ramming. But in GEV, on which this is based, the Ogre has to undergo overrun combat with the unit it wants to ram, and doesn't lose any extra tread poitns just for crushing it. The damage an Ogre takes in Ogre isn't because it is hurt by ramming something as small as a regular armor unit, but because that armor unit is assumed to get one last shot at can't miss range before the treads come down on it.

77: Want to run OGRE MINIS at a con?
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 22:52 11/19/92

We'll support you, gleefully. E-mail D K Blankenship for details.

78: ogre online sounds good to me...
By: KC [751]
Date: 07:27 11/20/92

hey herr wiz: i, too, am interested in an ogre/gev game-by-e'mail. any ideas how to work it (it sounded like you had done so before)? i'd be a slow player (calling every day might get to be a bit expen$ive, ya know), but could probably call 3 to 5 times a week in the early morning hours.

let me know...

79: KC
By: Herr Wiz [175]
Date: 04:10 11/22/92

Had two interested parties, but haven't heard from them in about a week. Yes, it's slow - I only call once or twice a week myself. Find someone other than yourself, and we'll see what we can do.

80: New (sort of) Units For Playtest
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 01:44 11/25/92

These two may wind up in the first supplement to OGRE MINIATURES. Try them out; see if you like them; see if you think the point values are appropriate. UNITS TO PLAYTEST

@C-HEAD = Missile GEV (MSL-GEV) @TBL ATTACK ST = Attack: 3 Range: 8'' Defense: 2 @TBL ATTACK ST = Move: 6''/4'' Movement Mode: GEV @TBL ATTACK ST = Size: 2 Points: 9 A deadly combination of speed and power, this GEV is armed with smart battlefield rockets similar to those carried by the Missile Tank. It's not as fast as a regular GEV, but can keep up with the GEV-PC.

@C-HEAD = Heavy Missile Tank (HMSL) @TBL ATTACK ST = Attack: 1 Range: 2'' Defense: 2 @TBL ATTACK ST = Missile: 6 Range: 10'' @TBL ATTACK ST = Move: 4'' Movement Mode: TNK @TBL ATTACK ST = Size: 3 Points: 7 A large, relatively slow vehicle, this unit is a mobile launcher for two Ogre-type missiles. These are identical to standard Ogre missiles, with an attack strength of 6 and a range of 10''. Once fired, each missile is gone, and the unit may not be reloaded during a battle. If the vehicle is destroyed, the missiles are too. The missiles can be fired singly, or both at the same time. They do not have to be targeted on the same unit. Because the small tank lacks an Ogre's sophisticated battle computers, if both missiles are launched on the same turn at different targets, those two targets must be within 2'' of each other. This tank is also armed with a multibarreled cannon for self-defense.

(7 points is an ugly number. Would it be worth 9 points if it had 3 missiles? What if it had 3 but could fire only one at a time? What if it could fire 2 at a time but could not fire all 3 at once?)

81: Missile GEV...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 16:38 11/25/92

is too powerful, by far. It can disable mobile Howitzers with ease, with a combination of 6" movement, and 8" range, it givis it a 1 turn move-range total of 14", same as a M-hwz. Not good. I like the missile tank, but make it 9, for the same reason...14 M-R inches...Either that, or give it 3 missiles but only 1 launch per turn. 3-2 is too ugly.

82: GURPS Ogre?!
By: Glowing Puppie [445]
Date: 16:43 11/26/92

Only if I can be a MkVI...

BTW, I love the miniatures, but painting those guys in the armor is driving me insane. Does anybody know what color to paint my Aqua-Marines?

83: What color to paint AquaMarines?
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 00:06 11/30/92

I think he just handed me a straight line . . .

84: Batch of Combine GEVs located -
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 00:07 11/30/92

potentially to be auctioned off for the BBS, if there is interest. See Board 2, post of this date.

85: Permission granted to echo this sub-
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 00:09 11/30/92

board to rec.games.board. Henry Cobb tells me that somebody wanted to do that. It's fine with me, as an experiment, until further notice, and provided that whoever wants to do it will also bundle up the relevant posts from rec.games.board and put them back here.

86: Another general question:
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 00:11 11/30/92

Right now, except for a couple of cybertanks, every unit that is available to any army in OGRE is available to all the others. Between design piracy, captured units, and whole captured factories, everybody has SOME sort of Heavy Tank with effectively identical stats. Ditto GEV, missile tank and so on.

I did that very much on purpose, because I didn't want "Oh, shoot, I can't have that unit because my army never built any" to get in the way of the game. How do others feel about this?

87: I like it...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 20:16 11/30/92

except for those couple of Cybertanks...Right now, the Paneuropeans have no cybertank with a move of 8", and I think they should have at least on...Maybe upgrade the Fencer, call it a Fencer-B, up the points to 150-160, same weapons, same treads (Convieniently divisible by 6 AND).

New unit idea: Mortar Squads. These troops would have a range of 6" instead of 2", due to being equipped with all sorts of light artillery rockets, mortars, etc...Cost 3 points per squad. Too powerful? make points cost 4, extend range to 8" Just an idea...

I'd like to see rules for an emplaced Ogre missile...

Question: What are the effects of revetments in defensive terrain? Does a revetment have its defense bonus doubled in towns? Tripled if it has infantry in it? Or do you just add the +2 defense to whatever value of defense is already there (I.E. a three-squad infantry in a town, normally 9 defense, >would have 11.) Or is there no bonus to revetments at all? (The town's providing all the cover.)

88: Just out of curiosity...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 20:18 11/30/92

Just which models will be in the next set of releases from Ral Partha?

89: Answers!
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 16:22 12/2/92

Revetments, like other defensive bonuses, fall under the Multiply First, Then Add rule. See p. 32. So an armor unit in a revetment in town is doubled for the town, then +2 for the revetment.

The next set of releases from Partha will be:
Fencer (design by Mike Naylor, low-slung and spiky)
Heavy Tank
Missile Tank
GEV (yes, the Combine GEV rides again)
Light Tank

90: Echoing to rec.games.board
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 23:47 12/6/92

If somebody decides to do this, please let us all know by posting here.

91: GEV vs SFB, FAQ.
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 08:13 12/9/92

I'll be redoing the infantry posting (to bring it up to date with the new infantry types, as well as my continued confusion about infantry cost modifiers). When I'm done I'll post both here and on rec.games.btech, until then enjoy: ( ;-)

--------------------SFB vs GEV: FAQ--------------------

Q: Whats the Difference between Star Fleet Battles and Ogre/GEV?


Tactical Game Y Y
Based on:
TV Show N Y
Movies N Not really
Sci-Fi Books Y Y
exploits of oversexed Captain? N Y

Game designed by power-mad
Texan? Y Y

Has Robotic Units? Y Y
Has Giant Humanoid Robots? N N
Has Starfighters? Y Y
Has Giant planet killing ships? N N
Has cloaking devices? N Y
with hidden movement? - N (strange, isn't it?)

Each hex represents: 1 mile 10,000 km
Each Turn lasts: 4 min 1/20th sec
Time taken to play turn: 2 min 30 min
Time taken to learn rules: 30 min Nobody ever has...

Game requires extensive
"energy and systems" plotting? N Y

Game has funky turn-mode and
weapon arcs rules? N Y

Separate infantry game: out of print. Unreleased
Miniatures rules: Y not yet.
Computer game availible: Y N
by FTP? ;-) --

Minimum dice required: 1 2
shape of dice required: cubes cubes

Basic Game costs: $10 $30
complete game costs: $25 >$200

Mr Cobb
runs e-mail list on: Y Y
runs PBeM games: Y Y
With slots for new
players? maybe. N

92: I like it. Be sure to stick THAT
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 22:28 12/9/92

on rec.games.board.

93: Interesting idea for OGRE phasing
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 22:33 12/9/92

came up today at playtest. We were discussing the fact that a tactical retreat in OGRE is a bad idea - the rules are designed to encourage you to shoot and keep shooting, not to run away.

Somebody - I think it was Ray - pointed out that if a unit had the option of firing either at the beginning OR the end of its turn (or, logical corollary, at any time during the turn), that a retreat in the face of superior firepower would become a valid tactic. Assuming that you have someplace friendly to retreat TO.

Obviously, it adds bookkeeping. If a unit fires before moving, you must tag it appropriately, to make sure that no unit ever fires twice.

Wonder what it does to the flavor of the game? I'll try to find out for myself, but I'd like to know what other people think if they try it.

(Change of subject. I have a batch of preliminary notes from Mike Naylor and David Graham re: KILLING ZONE, the next Ogre Minis book. Will try to transcribe them and post for comments.)

94: If you did that...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 21:34 12/11/92

how would a GEV work? Fire, and then take all 14" of movement? It would be an interesting option, but that would have to be addressed.

When are the next batch of models (Fencer, etc.) expected out?

95: Ogre split move.
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 11:13 12/12/92

The split move feature might best be applied to OGREs. Just let the OGRE declare how many inches of movement it will take in its first movement phase. Then it moves that ammount and then fires. The rest of its movement it gets to take on its 2nd movement phase. The entire hack can be blamed on "Robotic reflexes". This would settle the question of the Move 10" OGRE. (If a "fair" Ogre Construction System can ever be aggred upon...) DANGER WILL ROBINSON! Mark IVs leapfrog the Mark Vs and become very nasty critters indeed under this scheme! (Please, Steve: take a split-moving Mark IV up against 300 points of "convential" defence in a "crush the CP" type game before you OK this one...).

96: About the MSL-GEV...
By: Vecna [697]
Date: 22:01 12/12/92

I really like this idea, but Dr. Z is right. It is too powerful. The only idea I have about fixing this problem (besides forgetting the idea), is to assume that the missile needs a stable platform to be launched. Thus, the MSL-GEV cannot fire on a turn that it has moved, but it still can move quickly across the board to get where it needs to be.

97: Cross posting in effect.
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 08:41 12/13/92

Uploaded msgs #'s 85-96 to rec.games.bored, and spotted this:

From ALOHC@CUNYVM.BITNET Sun Dec 13 05:44:25 1992
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: ban on lead-based figures in new york
Date: Tuesday, 8 Dec 1992 19:07:49 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

hopefully this is the correct place to discuss this - if anyone knows otherwise, let me know and i will move.

as a resident of new york, and dependent on the compleat strategist for any locally purchased miniatures, i was quite surprised when i walked into a compeat strategist store and found not a single figure out for sale (including the new GW squig herder teams i meant to buy!)

the health commissioner of new york seems to have taken it upon himself (along with his buddies) to determine that the people of new york are entirely too irresponsible to handle miniatures containing lead, and they should not be allowed.

the decision took the form of an order for summary action submitted on December 2, 1992, effective immediately. for those of you interested, i have re-keyed the order in full below. this is a major cause for concern among all wargamers specializing in the figure based games. and it is not just a concern for those of us in new york, as the likely result of this remaining in force in new york will be a large number of other states following soon after. unfortunately, the dangers from lead are well documented, and this is a hot topic now. i myself am a clerk in a law firm, and we have an entire department devoted to the issue. i would also point out, however, that even those attorneys on the side of the anti-lead groups have at least personally agreed that lead figures are not the real risk. i feel this is just a splash-over from the lead paint/ lead plumbing issue.

i would like to hear other people's opinions on this subject. after conversing with a variety of individuals both in the hobby and not, here seem to be some of the ideas of what should be done:

Leave the ban in place. If the health department has determined it to be a hazard, then it must be a hazard. the companies that produce these figures will then be forced to change to other alloys or plastics. [Note that the only figures still on the shelves are from a company called Heartbreaker, who already use a non-lead based alloy.]

Lift the ban for a set time period. This would have the same effect as the above, but without the interruption in availability which would cause annoyance to the buyers and monetary damage to the companies, especially at the holiday time of year, when sales are high.

Get rid of the ban entirely. Any kind of additional legislation is too much. The government is not our parents. Let us handle responsibility on our own. [This opinion was expressed most vehemently by gamers and experience attorneys]

Set an age requirement on the purchase of lead figures. Make sure that the people buying the figures are of an age which can be reasonably expected to act responsibly. Products such as alcohol can destroy a person's life in a lot less time, but are not banned. As for what age: 18? 15? 10? old enough not to stick small lead objects in their mouths?

one last note before the text of the order. note that the order does not attempt to say the figures are toys. they only say that the figures resemble toys, and are thus attractive to young children. this is an important part of the order. the recent failed legislation at the national level had specified that all toys be lead-free. interpret this as you may. here is the text.

The Sale and/or Distribution of ACTION
Figurines Containing Lead :


WHEREAS, lead is an environmental poison for children and lead exposure is one of the most preventable childhood health problems in New York State today; and WHEREAS, environmental exposure to even low levels of lead increases a child's risk of developing permanent learning disabilities, reduced concentration and attentiveness and behabior problems; and WHEREAS, higher levels of lead can cause mental retardation, kidney disease, liver damage and even death; and WHEREAS, figurines made principally of lead (with lesser amounts of tin, antinomy or other substances) often resemble children's toys and are usually sold as game pieces or collectibles by stores such as toy, hobby, comic book or craft supply stores; and WHEREAS, experimental results have shown that lead can be easily removed from figurine surfaces; and WHEREAS, during play, young children may ingest lead transferred from a figurine to the hands or by direct oral contact with a figurine; and that such exposure may result in elevated blood lead levels; and WHEREAS, the Commissioner of Health of the State of New York, after investigation, is of the opinion that the sale and/or distribution in New York State of figurines containing lead is an activity which constitutes an immediate danger to the health, safety and welfare of the people of the State of New York and that it also constitutes a nuisance affecting the security of life and health of the people; and WHEREAS, it therefore appears to be prejudicial to the interests of the people to delay action for fifteen days until an opportunity for a hearing can be provided in accordance with the provisions of Public Health Law Section 12-a. NOW, THEREFORE, THE COMMISSIONER OF HEALTH DOES HEREBY ORDER THAT: 1) Pursuant to Public Health Law Section 16, the following Respondents, manufacturers of the figurine products containing lead specified at paragraph 3 below, shall immediately cease the sale and/or distribution of said products in New York State:

[ a list of companies deleted - if specifics need let me know]

2) Pursuant to Public Health Law Section 16, all distributors and retail establishments in the State of New York, which sell and/or distribute the figurine products containing lead specified below, shall immediately cease the sale and/or distribution of said products within New York State. 3) The lead figurine products prohibited from sale and/or distribution under this Order for Summary Action shall include but not be limited to the following:

[list of figures - one each from the above companies.]

FURTHER, I DO HEREBY give notice that the Respondents are provided an opportunity to be heard on the 15th day of December, 1992, at 10:00 a.m. at the offices of the New York State Department of Health, Corning Tower, 24th Floor, Room 2438, Governor Nelson A. Rockefeller Empire State Plaza, Albany, New York, or at such other adjourned time or place, to present any proof that the sale and distribution of figurines containing lead does not constitute a danger to the health of the people of the State of New York. If any of the Repsondents desire such a hearing on the aforesaid date, a request for a hearing must be made in writing to Peter J. Millock, General Counsel, New York State Department of Health, Corning Tower, Room 2438, Governor Nelson A. Rockefeller Empire State Plaza, Albany, New York 12237, and be received by the close of business on December 11, 1992.

DATED: Albany, New York
December 2, 1992

MARK R. CHASSIN, M.D., Commissioner New York State Department of Health

98: Discussion of lead ban in NYC
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 15:21 12/13/92

Well, this might be as good a place as any other sub-board. That ruling has already been posted in full twice on Illuminati, but one of them is in #70, current events, which is basically devoted right now to flame wars about situational ethics and ammo consumption. I'll go over to 70 and tell people to look for further news here.

99: Missile Gev's
By: James Hart [618]
Date: 17:00 12/13/92

I like the MSL-GEV. It is a unit that is is both fast and effective in combat.

For those of you who think it is to powerful, just remember that the only thing it has over the MSL-Tank is speed, all the rest of the stats are the same. The problem I can see with this unit is cost. Since all you are buying is speed I think the cost should go down to about4 points. You really need to use this unit against an Ogre to apreciate it, and since I have been playing Ogre since it was called a Micro game I like this unit a lot. About the HVY MSL TANK. It is a good idea but mobile HWZRS are cheaper and have a better

attack strength and they don't have to worry about running out of ammo. And besides you might as well by two Cruise Msl Crawlers. Thats about it from me. So just remember when you see that Ogre comming over the hill, make sure your will is up to date.

100: GEVs VS LGEVs
By: Shockwave [424]
Date: 21:37 12/13/92

Shouldn't the Light GEVs in OGRE Minitures be faster than a standard GEV? It does make a kind of sense too, if you think about it. You're trying to move much less mass so you would go faster, right? Shockwave

101: About the Lead ban.....
By: C. J. Burke [884]
Date: 07:39 12/14/92

I called the New York Daily News the day after the ban went into effect to find out if they knew anything about it. The didn't, but the guy at the city desk sounded sympathetic and asked me to fax him a copy of the summary action order (which i've now buffered from **3** different sub-boards). A couple of hours later, when I hadn't gotten a response, I phoned him again. He hadn't even bothered to pick up the fax and this time he was rather condescending and annoying, as if to say, "Hey I was nice before, but drop it, ok? It aint news."

So much for our rights being taken away without so much as a hearing. THe News usually eats that stuff up.

102: Don't give up - call again, maybe
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 17:32 12/14/92

talk to somebody else. The media tend to assume that if you're not persistent, you didn't really mean business. Think of it as a screening process - it IS.

103: USENET: The Price of Lead.
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 06:53 12/16/92

Grabed this from rec.games.btech:

From manga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Tue Dec 15 20:47:47 1992
From: manga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Michael Betz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: GEV: cross-posting from the OGRE's BBS.
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:51:09 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

In article {BzB8Kr.Kt9@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu} robert@GEOBLUE.GCN.uoknor.
edu (Robert Lindsay) writes:
>Since this is here now I have a question for Steve Jackson. When will
we get
>a update to the Board Game version of GEV/OGRE? I'd pay $30 for a new
>with 5/8'' die cut counters and a bigger map. How about it?. As for
the >minatures rules, I'd love to get them but can't afford to shell out
$100 for
>a decent group if minatures. (Not

This is something I've been trying to point out to some of the local RPG hacks to get them involved in a Warhammer game I'm running: Miniatures are a (What a local storeowner has fererred to as a) non-recyclable expense, kinda like golf clubs: You cough up a healthy chunk of change at the start, and then the amount you spend over the rest of the time you are active in the hobby is negligable. Or to put it another way: HOW many copies of BASIC GURPS have you bought??

104: I've bought a bit over 100,000 copies
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 00:19 12/18/92

of Basic GURPS. Why?

Oh, never mind . . . {smirk}

Sadly, there are no current plans for a big-counter version of OGRE/GEV. Never say never, of course. But if I ever publish a big-hex boardgame version,

I'd like to include lotsa little plastic tanks, per Milton Bradley, rather than cardboard. Which is all a pipe dream right now.

$100 in miniatures for a decent set? Wow. Our *company* Ogre collection - which is *not* small or shabby - wouldn't retail for much more than that. With the exception of the Ogres themselves, of which we have about a dozen, because we like to paint them and because you *need* a dozen to run Exercise K.

(Hmm. Note to myself: Translate Exercise K to ASCII and put it in the G-files.)

No, the real expense in miniatures is NOT the raw lead. It's the time you put into preparing and painting the figures. Which I do out of love, so it doesn't count. But it's the reason I'm fanatical about carrying boxes . . . don't want to spend hours and hours kitbashing and painting, and then have them get bunged up on the way to a game or a convention.

But the other point on initial expense is that you want to round up a few friends who like the game, spend $20 or $30 each, get together for a few marathon painting sessions, and then field mutually complimentary units which you can expand gradually as time and wallet allows. Avoid at all costs the Thirty Pounds Of Unpainted Lead In My Closet syndrome.

105: Bureaucrats! @#*&^%%@!
By: Alacrity Fitzhugh [434]
Date: 06:05 12/18/92

It looks to me like this lead minitures ban in NY is just another example of a Bunch of bureaucrats trying to justify the existance of their agency (jobs), by of: "Citizens! We your selfless public servants have uncovered yet another hienous scourge..etc etc..." It would be interesting to know if this garbage coincides with a planned budget cut...hmmmmm hmmmm.
Alacrity Fitzhugh
Owner/Editor/Dictator-for-life of Gulag Press
Subriptions to "The Scavenger" available! E-mail for details!

106: 30 pounds o' lead in the closet
By: Montykins [862]
Date: 19:28 12/18/92

Well, my figures (somewhere between 1000 and 1300 of 'em) were in my closet for awhile. Many painted, though.

Just sold 'em. Had to.

Good rule for novices: Don't own more figures than you can conveniently display.

107: Be cool . . .
By: Stefan E. Jones [189]
Date: 22:56 12/18/92

Bureaucrats are generally torpid creatures, roused from their torpor only by outraged citizens. Write letters, circulate petitions, and they'll crawl back into their dens.

A friend attended the Tuesday night hearing in Albany. He said that he picked up good vibes; there were lots of people protesting the ban at the meeting.

Fingers crossed!

108: Variant Forces
By: Pam/David Dotson [201]
Date: 11:34 12/19/92

Has anyone tried using GW's epic scale plastic miniatures in an OGRE game?

Most of the models are at least a little out of scale, but they provide a great change of pace. Both sides have to agree on their characteristics, of course, but if both sides have some of the GW models, this shouldn't be much of a problem. If you use some of the GW figures world background, it takes OGRE to other planets and times, greatly expanding the types of scenarios available.

Besides, it's just cool to watch a Mark V and Ork Gargant duke it out over the command post.

109: Yes...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 20:42 12/19/92

Games Workshops epic scale work very nicely with Ogre...I've been using Rhinos as APCs and Basilisk Mk. IIs as my MHWZs...(This was before Ral Partha released their MHWZ, but I'll probably continue to use them...The gun's bigger)...I haven't seen any others that really fit in with current rules,

(Maybe cruise missiles, but I prefer Partha's) But alternative rules would be interesting. Gargants? C'mon...

When will the new miniatures (Fencer, combine stuff) be out?

110: Maps
By: James Hart [618]
Date: 21:44 12/19/92

I don't have the room to set up 3D playing board for Ogre. So what kind of maps should I use with minitures?

111: Big ones :-) - a 1.5-inch hex
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 18:06 12/20/92

is about right. The Geo-Hex mats are fine. Though if you've got room for that, you might as well get some scenery too.

112: THe best hex board I've ever seen
By: C. J. Burke [884]
Date: 13:03 12/21/92

...was back at Brooklyn College. Very, very large hex map. We couldn't use it very much though because security kept chasing us away. Normally it was the promenade over the plaza building. (It was made of hexagonal cobblestones, and security wasn't amused by our games.)

113: Yes, there's lots of hex tile
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 20:49 12/21/92

around justthe right size for Ogres - 3" or so. Unfortunately, most of it is on public lavatory floors. Life is cruel sometimes.

114: Hex tiles in lavatories....
By: Shockwave [424]
Date: 01:49 12/22/92

So just hang a sign on the door that says: "OUT OF ORDER" People will assume that all the yelling and shouting going on is nothing more than the plumbers working on the pipe. Small problem though if security shows up >:) Shockwave

115: Hex map generator
By: White Noise [664]
Date: 07:40 12/22/92

I've got a HEX map generator written in FORTRAN. Wrote it some years ago.

It'll do any size hex's you want. It's written for a Calcomp Plotter but the Plot calls are VERY generic so you could subsitute calls to any plotter you want. I use it about once a year or so to regenerate a 10' by 3' map for our gaming table. (It gets chewed up, burned, beer spilled on it, ect). Anybody want it? Only a couple hundred lines or so. The only reason it's so big is that I optimized it for speed in plotting. It even makes a second pass with another size/color pen to plot Mega-hexs on top of the other hexs. BTW I've found that covering it with a sheet of mylar lets you use the White-board markers for drawing on it. Also helps protect it somewhat. I'd be willing to put it into the G-files.

116: Actually, the g-files already have
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 18:47 12/22/92

at least one hex map generator, or did last time I looked, but if this one works differently it would be good to give a choice. Want to stick it on the upload board? You're cleared for that now.

117: A cool new miniatures range
By: Keith Potter [457]
Date: 01:00 12/24/92

I just wanted to let everybody know about a British miniatures manufacturer I've recently discovered. They're called Ground Zero Games and they make an extensive range of 1/300, 15mm, and 25mm SF vehicles and buildings. Their resin-cast 1/300 scale buildings range includes reactors, factories, and office blocks (perfect for Shockwave-style scenarios), gun emplacements, modular bunker complexes and city blocks, starport facilities such as control towers and fuel storage tanks, communications facilies, and model starships to have parked at your starport landing pad. There's also a slope-sided command post which would work great as an Ogre CP. This buildings range is really large, including over fifty diffferent designs. They also sell a range of white metal vehicles, aircraft, and riverene craft in 1/300 scale, as well as some of the best looking 25mm scale vehicles I've ever seen.

The only drawback is that they don't sell their stuff over here--you've got to send away to England for it (though this may change soon), and that gets

quite costly. At any rate, I encourage everyone to check out their products-- they're really nice.

If you want a cataloge, you can send five international reply coupons (available at your post office) to Ground Zero Games, "Finzo", Barking Tye, Needham Market, Suffolk IP6 8Jb, Great Britain (yes, that's their address, and don't ask me what a "Finzo" is).

Lastly, I'd just like to point out that I have no connection with GZG other than as a very satisfied customer.

118: More Junk from rec.games.board
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 12:53 12/27/92

From mcclure@NEBULA.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM Tue Dec 22 06:56:17 1992
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: OGRE miniatures
Organization: LMSC, Sunnyvale, California
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 20:55:38 GMT

For those of you who might complain about similarities between the Paneuropeans and tne NA Combines, try this for variety once you become familiar with the rules. Look through your local hobby store for other types of sci-fi micro-armor miniatures. Then adapt OGRE type weapononry to those figures. That could give your forces a more individualistic flavor. The other lines that you can micro armor from are the Battletech series, the Centurian series from FASA (may be a bit more difficult. I think they dropped the miniature line for this game),

and Scotia. Heck, even some of Citadel's Titan series stuff could work. With these you could expand also to cover what might be called the early OGRE days (Mk.1 and pre Mk.1) or even "alien armor".

My current forces includes miniatures from all of the lines mentioned above plus some very old Superior castings that were out in the 70s. I have yet to work out the stats simply because I'm having too much fun painting and devising color schemes. Once I get all the bugs worked out I will post my results and give a run down on the various schemes I have used. They may not be as wild or vibrant as those in the rulebook, but they might just be interesting (like a dazzle scheme similar to that used on World War 1 ships).

Kent M. McClure
Auto racing afficionado and member of San
Jose IPMS chapter.
My views are what they are, like them or not.

From goldman@orac.cray.com Tue Dec 22 21:11:57 1992
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos)
Nntp-Posting-Host: orac.cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:05:54 CST

In article {HCOBB.92Dec19064322@fly2.berkeley.edu} hcobb@fly2.berkeley.edu

(Henry J. Cobb) writes:
> [As spotted on SJG's BBS 1-(512)-447-4449 -HJC]
> 104: I've bought a bit over 100,000 copies
> By: Steve Jackson [2]
>Date: 00:19 12/18/92
>of Basic GURPS. Why?
>Oh, never mind . . . {smirk}
>Sadly, there are no current plans for a big-counter version of OGRE/GEV.
>Never say never, of course. But if I ever publish a big-hex boardgame version, >I'd like to include lotsa little plastic tanks, per Milton Bradley, rather >than cardboard. Which is all a pipe dream right now.

I've got a big counter version of Ogre! But then we have a color laser printer on the network here. I did up the map on 11x17 paper, and redid the counters. I really HATE the font on the Ogre/GEV counters, mine are much easier to read.

Actually I've got a number of versions of my map and counters. I've got on that folds up and can go away with me, and I've got one with magnetic backers. I have a white board at work with the current situation up and running on it. Today is not a good day to be in the command post...

Matthew Goldman E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com
Fax: (612) 683-3099 Work: (612) 683-3061
"Say George, I don't mean to interrupt, but there's a glowing red dot on your forehead."

From robert@geoblue.gcn.uoknor.edu Tue Dec 22 21:13:02 1992
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: robert@geoblue.gcn.uoknor.edu (Robert Lindsay)
Subject: Re: GEV: More loot from the Ogre's lair.
Originator: usenet@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:18:21 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Organization: Geosciences Computing Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman,

> 104: I've bought a bit over 100,000 copies
> By: Steve Jackson [2]
>Date: 00:19 12/18/92
>of Basic GURPS. Why?
>Oh, never mind . . . {smirk}
>Sadly, there are no current plans for a big-counter version of OGRE/GEV.
>Never say never, of course. But if I ever publish a big-hex boardgame version, >I'd like to include lotsa little plastic tanks, per Milton Bradley, rather >than cardboard. Which is all a pipe dream right now.

Why not do something like what GDW did awhile back with their system 7 counters? You could do nice overhead shots of all the units, and print the on single or double size counters for use with the minatures rules. All you'd need is a nice Mac and access to a decent color outpit system. How about it?

>$100 in miniatures for a decent set? Wow. Our *company* Ogre collection - >which is *not* small or shabby - wouldn't retail for much more than that. With >the exception of the Ogres themselves, of which we have about a dozen, because >we like to paint them and because you *need* a dozen to run Exercise K.

OK how much would it cost to get enough mini's to do a basic Mk III battle >from the Ogre game.

>(Hmm. Note to myself: Translate Exercise K to ASCII and put it in the G- >files.) > >No, the real expense in miniatures is NOT the raw lead. It's the time you put >into preparing and painting the figures. Which I do out of love, so it doesn't >count. But it's the reason I'm fanatical about carrying boxes . . . don't want >to spend hours and hours kitbashing and painting, and then have them get >bunged up on the way to a game or a convention.

I understand but a lot of us have no skill at painting, but still would love a nice new edition of OGRE. Are you turn off because of the poor reception of Deluxe Ogre? I think the problem with it was the stands. I've never understood peoples facination with them. I think it detracted from Deluxe OGRE

>But the other point on initial expense is that you want to round up a few >friends who like the game, spend $20 or $30 each, get together for a few >marathon painting sessions, and then field mutually complimentary units which >you can expand gradually as time and wallet allows. Avoid at all costs the >Thirty Pounds Of Unpainted Lead In My Closet syndrome.

The problem is their are a lot of us who could get their friends to PLAY Ogre but there's no way thy will be willing to put up the bux. Or like me, you have small children, who are going to eat or damage (or both) the mini's. What do we do?

> Henry J. Cobb hcobb@fly2.berkeley.edu SFB Tyrant
> "Once it becomes possible to do something, it gets very difficult to
>undo it. Whether its automobiles, computers or nuclear weapons, invention has
>always been the mother of necessity."

From harry@medusa.dseg.ti.com Wed Dec 23 22:15:35 1992
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: harry@medusa.dseg.ti.com (harry campbell)
Subject: Re: GEV: More loot from the Ogre's lair.
Nntp-Posting-Host: ares
Reply-To: harry@medusa.dseg.ti.com
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:56:35 GMT

>I understand but a lot of us have no skill at painting, but still would love
>a nice new edition of OGRE. Are you turn off because of the poor reception
>of Deluxe Ogre? I think the problem with it was the stands. I've never

>understood peoples facination with them. I think it detracted from Deluxe

Maybe your lack of painting skill, is simply a lack of practice at painting. Wasn't Deluxe Ogre supposed to be that nice new edition of OGRE? I find it hard to believe that someone would not buy Deluxe OGRE simply because the game came with stands. If so, why was Battletech such a hit? Seems to me you have four choices: 1) Buy the original pocketbox games, and use those chits, 2) Buy Deluxe Ogre and use the stands, 3)Buy the miniatures, and the miniature rules, and paint them (the best way!), 4)Buy one of the above sets of rules, and make your own counters. Sorry, but OGRE was not made by Avalon Hill so you probably won't see it with die cut counters with overhead pictures (Deal with it). The game is available in several formats. Miniatures and terrain help capture your imagination, and add to the gaming experience, but if a game is really worth playing what difference does it make if you use chits, counters, or stands?

> Or like me, you have
>small children, who are going to eat or damage (or both) the mini's. What do
>we do?

Move to New York.

(please keep in mind I'm a micro-armor buff, so I love miniatures.)

Harry Campbell

119: ASCII OGRE - I like it!
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 19:00 12\/28\/92

Thanks to Henry Cobb for arranging the rec.games.board crosspostings!

Comments on recent threads:

Henry asks (in e-mail) whether infantry can ever be hit "stacked" with the vehicle they are riding, since they can dismount at the end of every movement and re-mount at the beginning of the next turn. Answer: The infantry can't move on their own on the turn they dismount; ergo, they're standing there beside the vehicle and are stacked with it. Should I make this wholly explicit in later editions? "Can Infantry mount at the start of a movement phase, or just at the start of a turn?" Rules intention was "only at the start of a turn." I think this is valid, as otherwise INF could move their full movement and then be picked up by a GEV-PC as it begins its second phase. "When INF rides a vehicle into overrun combat, can the surviving INF re-mount and continue on to further attacks?" A definite NO. They can mount vehicles only at the start of a turn, and overrun occurs in the middle of movement. (I like this answer from a reality standpoint as well. The INF are assumed to scatter as they dismount. It will take more than zero time for them to regroup and mount up, especially in the aftermath of combat.)

How much would it cost for a basic Mark III scenario? Okay, using Partha's suggested retail: $7.95 for the Mark III itself. $4.00 for a pack of infantry (contains 24 figures; you need 20) $16 to $24 for 12 armor units, depending on which ones you want - GEVs are 3 to a $4 package, HVY and MSL are 2 to a package, HWZs are 1 to a package. It's still, unfortunately, almost impossible to find the Command Post and other DCP structures in stores, though DCP will sell them by mail order: for catalog, write DCP, PO Box 1063, Kelso, WA 98626.

So worst case for the Mark III setup is $36 worth of lead, plus whatever you do for a CP.

What if there are small children in the house? Well, obviously, if the miniatures can't be stored safely, and if the children can't be prevented from swarming onto the table and eating the armies during the game, then something must be done. I'd suggest finding a gamer who does NOT have kids, and getting him to volunteer as Keeper of the Miniatures. (Note also: It would be prudent to treat the lead-shavings produced when you clean up your miniatures pre-painting like any other toxic waste. Don't just let them sift into the rug, and don't throw them into your lawn. I save mine for a friend who casts his own ammo . .. )

And for those who have been having trouble finding really small brushes, Pam Dotson advises me that Loew-Cornell, Inc. (201-836-7070) makes them down to 18/0 size. She sent me a couple of samples, and they look wonderful. I will call the company tomorrow and request a catalog. (Another tip scissors can be used to remove the wild hairs that appear as a brush ages, extending its life and making it smaller and smaller.)

120: "Unofficial" minis...
By: Vecna [697]
Date: 22:17 12/31/92

Yes, FASA does still make miniatures for Centurion. They're out of plastic now, and come in sets. The only Ogre figures that they really look like, though, are GEVs. That's what I use them for and they look very good.

121: We overlooked something...
By: Vecna [697]
Date: 22:18 12/31/92

back a while ago when Steve posted those new units. Several people (including myself) had reservations about the Missile GEV because of its move + fire range. I just realized that you can do this already by putting Heavy Infantry on GEV-PCs! It costs a few more points . . . but it's there.

122: Ground Zero stuff available in the US
By: Ted Arlauskas [37]
Date: 17:56 1/1/93

Ground Zero's line of resin 1/300th scale buildings and 25mm vehicles are available in the U.S. Stan Johansen of Stan Johansen Miniatures sells them. His address is: 128 Barberton Road, Fort Worth, FL 33467. Stan doesn't sell Ground Zero's lead micro-armor but I'm sure he would start if enough people expressed interest. Stan does however sell a line of 1/300th scale sci-fi armor that's relatively inexpensive and seems to be all OGRE type units (GEVs, LtGEVs, MHWZ, etc.). The castings aren't nearly as nice as Ral Partha's but they are a bit cheaper. Write to Stan for information on the buildings and miniatures. Buying them over here from Stan would be a lot easier than getting them from England I'm sure. Oh yea, I don't represent this company either, but Stan's a pretty cool guy by the way.

123: Johansen miniatures
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 20:57 1/1/93

I've seen these. "Not nearly as nice as Ral Partha's" is, unfortunately, an understatement. They appeal mostly to the "save fifty cents now, have an ugly miniature forever" market. Which DOES exist.

124: Yes, HW infantry
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 16:32 1/6/93

would have a rather large move-fire range, 14", but you can only do it once, which does get a bit costly...2 HW squads on a SHVY is a favorite combo of mine.

125: Error . . . By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 16:49 1/6/93

Actually, HW infantry have a move of 4" and a missile range of 8", so unless they're on a road,that move-fire range is only 12". Move-fire range IS an important concept - we call it "opportunity."

126: Yes, but mount those...
By: Doctor Z [232]
Date: 09:58 1/9/93

HW infantry on a SHVY or GEV-PC, or even HVY or LGT tanks, and voila, a 14" opportunity thinger...They are also very neccessary when defending an all- infantry force against GEVs.

127: Ahh. A different question.
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 15:15 1/9/93

There's still discussion about whether the HW infantry should be able to set up and fire their rocket while riding a vehicle. I think it flunks the reality check. But the rules are ambiguous (mea culpa). And since they ARE ambiguous, we don't go to "What did Steve intend?" but "What's the best answer?"

128: stuff
By: James Hart [618]
Date: 20:59 1/10/93

Does anybody out there have a complete Shockwave or Ogre Reinforcement pack

that they would consider selling me. If you do leave a message for me on this board.

129: OGRE/GEV is there a FAQ List???
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 21:24 1/10/93

As posted on rec.games.btech...

--------------------GEV FAQ List--------------------

Yes, I know that nobody ever asks about GEV, but here's the answers anyway.

Described as "Tactical Ground Combat in the 21st Century From the World of Ogre", GEV is a simple and small scale board game in which each counter represents one vehicle or handfull of infantry.

The Sci-Fi twist to this game is that a super strong (nanotech based?) armor has been developed that can withstand anything short of a atomic blast, hence all units are armed with (mostly) tactical nuclear weapons. In addition to the usual battlesuited stormtroopers, tanks and Hovercraft (Ground Effect Vehicles == GEVs) there are also a few extra-large computer controlled Cybertanks, called OGREs.

OGRE, published in 1977 was the first modern "MicroGame", and launched the career of lawschool dropout Steve Jackson; he later authored GEV as a sequel to OGRE. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then and Mr Jackson now has his own company called, surprisingly enough, "Steve Jackson Games".

Currently SJG offers two (IMUO) worthwhile titles: The OGRE/GEV combined edition ($10) with the maps, rules and counters from the two seperate games and the Ogre Miniatures Book ($15) with all the rules and units from the board game and more recast into miniatures rules.

Mr Jackson used to have a magazine called "The Space Gamer" which published a lot of material on OGRE & GEV, the best ideals from this have made their way into the Miniatures book. One of the missing pieces is an article Mr Jackson wrote around a unit design formula that I provided. However I made a mistake and now have to redo it. (Mr Jackson has yet to ask for his $5 back.)

SJG also runs a BBS (2400b at 512-447-4449, when it's not being seized by the Feds ;-), but if you don't have a modem handy you can write me and ask to be added to the GEV Tactics List. When I'm not blowing simple Algebra (heck, I only have a BS in Math...), I also run a PBeM game over my GEV e-mail list.

130: just checking
By: KC [751]
Date: 16:46 1/13/93

this is an attempt to clarify some rules to help prevent rules lawyers from eating up too much game time... both q's deal with heavy weapons squads (p 17 o.m.): 1) does using the missile attack preclude using their 'normal' infantry type attack? 2) if they are overrun and still have their missile, can they get all of the boni (bonuses? whatever...) for using it, or only if they attack as normal infantry?

131: Answers re Heavy Weapon Squads
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 18:28 1/13/93

(1) They cannot make a regular attack at the same time they make their missile attack.

(2) Yes, they can use their missile if they are overrun, but I don't think it should double. Did I not cover that? (sound of heel of hand thwacking head).

132: From r.g.btech: Pyramid.
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 22:48 1/14/93

From alsandor@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca Mon Jan 11 20:04:27 1993
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
From: alsandor@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Michel Boucher)
Subject: Re: OGRE/GEV: is there a FAQ???
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 18:04:47 EST

sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:

> Mr. Jackson will once again have a magazine that covers Ogre
> Miniatures, at least. Starting hopefully by mid-year, SJG will combine
> Roleplayer and Autoduel uarterly into one journal, and add Ogre and
> Hot Lead coverage as well. It will also feature reviews of non-SJG
> games. The magazine will be called Pyramid, of course . . . more news
> about it later, I'm sure.

Steffan, interesting concept. I was just thinking, as I purchased ADQ 10-3 recently, that it has probably reached a plateau and needs to be scaled down. I presume the plan to go ahead with ADQ 10-4 and then start the Pyramid sales? Bwahaha...couldn't resist.


C. Michel Boucher | alsandor@micor.ocunix.on.ca
Private user |
Ottawa, Canada | member, Christina Amphlett fan club

133: Computer Game, anymore?
By: hcobb [64]
Date: 17:06 1/31/93

From mochang@aludra.usc.edu Fri Jan 15 20:24:15 1993
From: mochang@aludra.usc.edu (Morrison J. Chang)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: OGRE/GEV: is there a FAQ???
Date: 14 Jan 1993 21:30:33 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu
Keywords: OGRE IBM computer game version origin

Is an IBM version of OGRE still being sold? (by Origin?) A Windows version?

134: Computer versions
By: Steve Jackson [2]
Date: 23:24 1/31/93

It is barely possible that Origins would still sell IBM-Ogre by mail. It is not in their catalog, and they've told me that they plan to dispose of their remaining supplies soon. There was never a Windows version.

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